Denon AVR-X6800H now released.

[Oddball]

Hello,

I'm wondering if any one has any experience setting up the receiver to bi-amp front speakers using external amplifiers?

I tried both 9.1(bi-amp) and 7.1(bi-amp)+zone 2. For both of them the high frequency has no pre-outs. I called Denon and they told me bi-amp is only for internal amp. I'm very surprised to hear this. If I want to do bi-amp, I obviously want more power and internal amp is not what I want. If it is true, then it is indeed a rather odd design decision.

Thanks

You might want to try setting 6800 to 13.1 channel as per below.

Connecting 13.1-channel speakers AVR-X6800H

manuals.denon.com

Then you can choose "none" in the speaker configuration for the speakers that are not connected (Atmos). Could work.

Although as @dlaloum noted benefits of bi-amping are questionable in most setups.

Gallo Reference 3 series has quite unique design where the lower posts if powered activates second coil in the woofer that is not active if connected only to the higher post although first bass coil is active and plays pretty low bass. I have not been bi-amping my Gallos as of late as requires lots of wiring for 6 of them, but recall from previous room that when bi-amped, speakers did reach a bit lower and player with a bit more authority in the low end.

 

[peng]

My primary issue is when I set it up as "9.1-channel playback (bi-amp connection of front speakers)" following: https://manuals.denon.com/avrx6800h/na/en/DRDZSYbiqqjfof.php There is no signal from height3/front wide pre-out. So I cannot use external amplifiers for bi-amp. However, if I follow the link exactly, i.e. using internal amplifiers, then it works fine. But using internal amplifiers is not what I want. And support has confirmed that for bi-amp, I can only use internal amplifiers. That's why I think the design decision is odd.

I appreciate if you can provide more insight how I can do bi-amp using external amps.

PS, I tried height1, height2, and height3/front wide pre-out, none of them has any signal. And I tried "Spkr + Pre-out" and "Pre-out Only", also no luck.

In that case, it won't do what you want, but in general when people want to biamp their front speakers using external power amp with an AVR such as Denon's, they would simply use the "preamp mode". In you case, you could good quality RCA splitters to feed the two power amp output channels, one for the HF, the other for the LF.

 

[lxg208]

In that case, it won't do what you want, but in general when people want to biamp their front speakers using external power amp with an AVR such as Denon's, they would simply use the "preamp mode". In you case, you could good quality RCA splitters to feed the two power amp output channels, one for the HF, the other for the LF.

View attachment 443601

Thanks,

From your post and @Oddball's, I take both of you are saying that there is not difference in signal for HF and LF in bi-amp? My understanding of the benefit of bi-amp is to separate the load of LF to another amp. If the signals are the same, isn't the benefit gone?

My old Onkyo receiver Onkyo tx-NR818 worked exactly like what I wanted. But it doesn't support 7.1 with bi-amp. And I'm planing to upgrade to 7.1.2, that's why I bought X6800H. As TX-NR818 worked out of the box, I didn't dig it deep about the signal for bi-amp.

 

[Oddball]

If you do a search on the forum for bi-amping you will find lots of posts that probably dig deep in theory behind it all.

If you have unused channels then no harm in trying to run the speakers with e.g. double wattage in bi-amp. But it would also make sense to try bridging the channels if possible and using more power through single post. Bridging does usually entail higher distortion but likely would not be audible on most modern amps.

For bi-amping to be more effective, you would need a crossover before the amps so that e.g. the amp is amplifying only low end signal with the full power. But then adding additional crossover does bring additional issues and complexity.

My towers can be tri-amped, but honestly did not play with that. Pretty happy with 300Wpc into 8ohm Brystons driving them through a single post.

 

[peng]

Thanks,

From your post and @Oddball's, I take both of you are saying that there is not difference in signal for HF and LF in bi-amp? My understanding of the benefit of bi-amp is to separate the load of LF to another amp. If the signals are the same, isn't the benefit gone?

My old Onkyo receiver Onkyo tx-NR818 worked exactly like what I wanted. But it doesn't support 7.1 with bi-amp. And I'm planing to upgrade to 7.1.2, that's why I bought X6800H. As TX-NR818 worked out of the box, I didn't dig it deep about the signal for bi-amp.

In both cases, the signals voltage at the preouts will be the same whether you use external power amp or not.

The current signals will be different not because of the preouts but because of the crossovers of the speakers, that force the signal currents in each pair of wires to become separated into HF and LF.

 

[lxg208]

In both cases, the signals voltage at the preouts will be the same whether you use external power amp or not.

The current signals will be different not because of the preouts but because of the crossovers of the speakers, that force the signal currents in each pair of wires to become separated into HF and LF.

I got it now. Even in the case of TX-NR818, the "HF" preouts have signal, they have the same signal as "LF" preouts. So to bi-amp, I can simply use a pair of RCA splitter to split the front outputs.

@peng @Oddball thank you both for the information, they are very helpful.

 

[vivid]

My old Onkyo receiver Onkyo tx-NR818 worked exactly like what I wanted.

Onkyo 818 (and some other higher models) from 2012-2013 was exceptional, because this model had a "Digital processing crossover network" = digital crossover. True biamp.
I also had 818, before HDMI board died (twice!), with modified speaker crossover, bass channel was transferred direct to bass speaker (crossover bypass).

After two years, Onkyo abandoned this type of active crossover, probably, because this was not "mass market" feature.

 

[lxg208]

Onkyo 818 (and some other higher models) from 2012-2013 was exceptional, because this model had a "Digital processing crossover network" = digital crossover. True biamp.
I also had 818, before HDMI board died (twice!), with modified speaker crossover, bass channel was transferred direct to bass speaker (crossover bypass).

After two years, Onkyo abandoned this type of active crossover, probably, because this was not "mass market" feature.

This explained it. No wonder I think bi-amp with 818 worked.

I do have several questions:

1. For newer receivers, is the bi-amp just splitting like @peng mentioned?
2. How about bi-amp using internal amplifiers from these newer receivers, are they still just "splitting"
3. Is there any theoretical benefit doing this "splitting"? I'm at a lost on this one.
4. Finally, is there any product in the market that does true bi-amp?

Thanks.

 

[Oddball]

This explained it. No wonder I think bi-amp with 818 worked.

I do have several questions:

1. For newer receivers, is the bi-amp just splitting like @peng mentioned?
2. How about bi-amp using internal amplifiers from these newer receivers, are they still just "splitting"
3. Is there any theoretical benefit doing this "splitting"? I'm at a lost on this one.
4. Finally, is there any product in the market that does true bi-amp?

Thanks.

There is no product in the market that would do true bi-amp as that has proven to be pointless. As far as splitting, you will need to be the judge of that. I would not expect much, if anything, from that exercise.

 

[peng]

This explained it. No wonder I think bi-amp with 818 worked.

I do have several questions:

1. For newer receivers, is the bi-amp just splitting like @peng mentioned?
2. How about bi-amp using internal amplifiers from these newer receivers, are they still just "splitting"
3. Is there any theoretical benefit doing this "splitting"? I'm at a lost on this one.
4. Finally, is there any product in the market that does true bi-amp?

Thanks.

1. I am 100% sure that you have to use splitters to feed both amps, unless you have an AVR that has the same feature the Onkyo 818 you mentioned, and I really can't comment on that either because I don't know exactly what/how the 818's digital crossover work, it may be good, but may be not..

2. Same answer as above so it will be just "splitting" unless.....

3. There are definitely benefits, in fact, some experts or even manufacturers (example, Anthem) might tell you that passive biamping is better than active biamping. See linked Anthem FAQ below, I am not endorsing their point, but I do agree with what they stated to a large extent, just don't agree with the active biamp/audio myth part as I think active biamp does have some benefits in some applications.

https://www.anthemav.com/support/faq.php

It is important to understand that in passive biamping, you do end up with having HF signal for the tweeter and LF signal for the woofer (for simplicity, consider 2 way speakers) so the claimed avoidance of the cemf effects would still apply. There are other benefits claimed too, but none of those claimed benefits are necessarily audible by humans. For passive biamping, you just need two amps, preferably identical ones (not a must, but just to keep things simple for here), an extra pair of wires and a couple of RCA splitters, and that you know how to wire things up lol...

4. "true bi-amp" might sound like a misnomer. The thing is, there are basically "active" bi-amp and "Passive" bi-amp but no such thing as true or false bi-amp.

Here's an easy to read article written by Steve Munz of Audioholics.com (at the time), highly recommended for you:

Bi-amping vs Bi-wiring: What's the Difference and is it Audible?

There are various ways to connect loudspeakers. Bi-amping vs bi-wiring, active vs passive bi-ampling; what kind of effect can it have on your audio system and is it audible? Read on.

www.audioholics.com

 

[lxg208]

Thanks for every one, I learned quite a bit of bi-ampping from this. I ended up with getting a pair of splitter cable and it works now.

I already have a five channel amplifier and I used the cable and connectors from parts-express, so the cost to do this is minimal. Thanks again.

 

[Laika2]

Thanks for every one, I learned quite a bit of bi-ampping from this. I ended up with getting a pair of splitter cable and it works now.

I already have a five channel amplifier and I used the cable and connectors from parts-express, so the cost to do this is minimal. Thanks again.

That's the beauty of bi amping, tried it twice, passive and 2 monoblocks for each main. Never heard a difference but so easy to try (if you have a extra amps for active over passive which makes more sense to me.
Removed bi amping a month latter, never noticed a difference BUT I HAD TO KNOW and it cost nothing other than digging up some speaker wire and a couple of monoblocks already in the system with power, just had to wire them to my 6800. 5 minute job, took longer digging through my cable boxes.

 

[dlaloum]

I already have a 5 channel amplifier, that's why I'm thinking about going this route. It's a home theater setup, and I don use front speakers for music. Do you mind letting me know which processor you are using to do bi-amp? Is it in a home theater setup as well?

At the time I experimented using first an Onkyo SR876, and later an Integra DTR70.4

Now I am using an Integra DRX3.4 - I have put aside the idea of BiAmping - my speakers are capable of it, but I have found that using my current power amps there is nothing to be gained by biamping... it isn't a processor issue - in the past I used the biamping x-over capability of the AVR's, I also used in line filters and splitters, and most lately the build in DSP/XOver functionality within the Crown XLS2500 amps... but with a sufficienty powerful and high current amp, I found the benefits of biamping to be non existent.

My setup serves dual duty for music and HT, in a large open living space, with cathedral ceiling.

It is 5.1.4, with processing done by Integra DRX3.4 - front L, C, R are Gallo Ref 3.2 and RefAV driven from Crown XLS2500 - all other channels are driven by the AVR internal amps.

 

[DTSman]

@BalanBro Thanks for your feedback
@EWL5 Before upgrading yesterday to Dirac 3.12, I was using Dirac 3.10 with the same issue.

I am waiting feedback from Denon (via my dealer) and from Dirac (via helpdesk)...

Hi,

After several weeks of exchange with Dirac Help Desk and Denon support, I have replaced my X6800H by a AV10H.... And the issue with Dirac measurement on the fourth subwoofer has disappear. Yeah! May be my X6800 unit had an hardware issue or may be not. I didn't want to take any risk a replace it by the superior model.

 

[Magestic]

Has anyone tried Diract ART with their 6800 yet? Curious to learn if it's worth it.

 

[Laika2]

Has anyone tried Diract ART with their 6800 yet? Curious to learn if it's worth it.

Yes and yes.

 

[jpqpi]

Yes and yes.

Please elaborate in the all the glorious detail

 

[Brambo67]

Please... very interested indeed

 

[Laika2]

Please elaborate in the all the glorious detail

Setup is Arendal THX towers in a 7.1.4 setup, base level has 8 6-1/2 woofers and 6 8 inch woofers that all hit down to almost 40. The sub is a Arednal 1723 V2 (duel) 15 inch drivers. All speakers other than the sub on 300 watt monoblocks. That should give you an idea of the support speakers I can use and the power I have available.

I ran ART sloppy the first time, just assigned all support speakers to everything just to get a template to start toying with. After this sloppy reading I fired up a few movies and music, dynamic stuff with lots of bass, What I ended up with was much tighter tactile bass, kick drums sounded like kick drums not just big boom bass notes, door slams were tactile, music was incredible. It made a huge change of Dirac DBC. It's the type of sound that might take a some a few weeks to get used to but not long, some people are used to bloated bass and miss it as I once did, but after you listen for a few weeks, the hyper realistic bass, which allows much more detail to emerge in both the highs and mids (as the muddy bass is not drowning out higher frequencies) I did not need all the support woofers so took some out of the mix and things improved a bit more. I am still playing, moving my sub tomorrow.

Now one would think with 300 watt monoblocks in a medium to smallish room and all those woofers is the reason I get such a dynamic change. You will need some support speakers as HTIB will not cut it but not as many as expected. As I say I took some out of the mix and that helped. On the monoblocks, do they help, I expect so but I have a freind that has about the exact same setup. He powers 12 4ohm speakers with I think a Denon 3800 and has the same sub> He reports the same thing, he was blown away and made the same observations as me. That amazes me. He can't be getting much power to the base level since it's going to 12 speakers.

My point is my overkill system is not needed for real chhanges in sound. You just need something as support with fair sized woofers, be that two subs or towers with fair szed woofers

If you have used Dirac before setting the reading levels as the first step is the only pain but you can use your old pre ART readings.

I've used over the years
SMS1s
Antimodes
Have the full x32 laptop setup
And now ART, have and Dirac for a few years.

ART blows them all the way and if you have readings it's not a one button push but we are getting close to that. Perhaps some day one can psh a button and walk away for a half hour and you are done.

Dirac ART is the best purchase I have made for sound processing and it's totally aparent from the get go just hitting a few buttons without tweeking if you have readings.

 

[Laika2]

Please... very interested indeed

Above