Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Sancus]

So Denon guaranteed themselves an additional $20 w/crappy out-of-the-box calibration?

Midrange compensation is for typical 2-way speakers that have a vertical directivity dip at the crossover, to prevent Audyssey from trying to EQ something that it shouldn't.

Historically this made sense as probably most speakers people were using had that characteristic. Maybe they still do, I dunno. It's not a terrible idea on its own but it is very very stupid that they didn't put an on/off option for it in the AVR firmware itself.

 

[EWL5]

Midrange compensation is for typical 2-way speakers that have a vertical directivity dip at the crossover, to prevent Audyssey from trying to EQ something that it shouldn't.

Historically this made sense as probably most speakers people were using had that characteristic. Maybe they still do, I dunno. It's not a terrible idea on its own but it is very very stupid that they didn't put an on/off option for it in the AVR firmware itself.

I think it was a marketing decision.

My SLM X3 C/L/R has a 3kHz crossover so I definitely need to pay for the app.

 

[Sancus]

I think it was a marketing decision.

My SLM X3 C/L/R has a 3kHz crossover so I definitely need to pay for the app.

No I suspect it was done because the app came long after the decision to add MRC, and they didn't consider other speaker types important at the time. I really doubt that Denon makes significant money from the $20 app. It's just too cheap to be relevant compared to the AVR prices.

Why they haven't corrected the situation in newer versions of Audyssey I don't know. Ignoring MRC, you still need the app to have any control over what Audyssey is doing. In your case, turning off MRC will stop Audyssey from adding a dip it shouldn't, but it won't stop it from trying to correct any dip at 3khz, or any other speaker issue that correction would make worse.

It's possible they still think other speaker designs aren't important, or that confused users will turn it off when they shouldn't. Who knows. It's a bad decision IMO especially given the high popularity of Kef and other designs that don't need MRC.

 

[peng]

So Denon guaranteed themselves an additional $20 w/crappy out-of-the-box calibration?

I don't think so. For years, Marantz, Onkyo, and to less extent NAD, even McIntosh have/had been subjected to the same and there weren't even $20 app to disable MRC. Im those cases, only those used the $500? Audyssey Pro could diable MRC.

Many users don't like using room correction anyway. Those who do, MRC may not be a negative thing for their speakers (some speakers may benefit from it), or is a negative thing but the users may not mind the effects, for whatever reasons.

 

[dlaloum]

I don't think so. For years, Marantz, Onkyo, and to less extent NAD, even McIntosh have/had been subjected to the same and there weren't even $20 app to disable MRC. Im those cases, only those used the $500? Audyssey Pro could diable MRC.

Many users don't like using room correction anyway. Those who do, MRC may not be a negative thing for their speakers (some speakers may benefit from it), or is a negative thing but the users may not mind the effects, for whatever reasons.

The Pro kit was substantially more than US$500, and you needed to purchase an Audyssey Pro licence for each AVR it was then used on...

 

[peng]

The Pro kit was substantially more than US$500, and you needed to purchase an Audyssey Pro licence for each AVR it was then used on...

Thanks, that's another indication that many Audyssey equipped AVRs/AVPs users were doing fine (and in some/many cases, may be ignorance is bliss at work) without the $20 app because it is easy to see rave reviews of the likes of the ex flagship Denon and Marantz (such as the AV8802a) that does not have the option to disable MRC unless they paid for the "Pro".

To those who believe they can benefit (for audibly better difference) from the app, $20 is not a lot money, and I believe the continuation of making MRC by default is more about practicality, continuity or even just for standardization to keep cost down, than to force people to spend another $20. If they were to make MRC an option, they might have to increase the price of the devices by a few dollars (I know a few lines of codes shouldn't cost much, but...), or they were to remove the feature altogether, they risk resentment from some potential new customers, and/or a huge numbers of existing customers who own units that have no way to disable MRC. The $20 option seems like a good compromise, and the fact is, for $20, one not only can disable or enable MRC, but can also customize target curve, save practically as many as .ady files/target curves, provide more fun for tweakers, etc..

 

[susanstone]

Why does one want to disable MRC? Is it supposed to have BBC dip because people prefer it? Unless you think your speaker is doing a better job on the dip than the target dip, then you need to set the frequency range not to process the dip instead of turning off MRC.

 

[peng]

Why does one want to disable MRC? Is it supposed to have BBC dip because people prefer it? Unless you think your speaker is doing a better job on the dip than the target dip, then you need to set the frequency range not to process the dip instead of turning off MRC.

My understanding is that If your speaker has a dip in a specific frequency range, it is better to disable MRC and then create a dip in the target curve to meet the designed dip. With MultEQ X, or the MultEQ Editor app, that can be done.

MRC would otherwise, puts a dip centers at around 2 kHz, that may not be good, unless your speaker is designed to have such a dip centered at 2 kHz.

 

[Dobbyisfree]

I think the value, in both features and performance, of the x3800 and (at least) its previous two predecessors is huge and beats the opposition hands down.

I don't understand anyone who thinks the pittance extra for the Audyssey app is an issue.

In fact, I can assuredly say that the ~£150 that I spent on MultEQ-X was better value than any other upgrade to the sound in my room.

Don't forget... it goes room-speakers-electronics.

Some people will spend a grand on a 3 channel power amp for LCR but not spend £150 to better EQ their room and speakers.

All in my opinion of course.

 

[delta76]

I think the value, in both features and performance, of the x3800 and (at least) its previous two predecessors is huge and beats the opposition hands down.

I don't understand anyone who thinks the pittance extra for the Audyssey app is an issue.

In fact, I can assuredly say that the ~£150 that I spent on MultEQ-X was better value than any other upgrade to the sound in my room.

Don't forget... it goes room-speakers-electronics.

Some people will spend a grand on a 3 channel power amp for LCR but not spend £150 to better EQ their room and speakers.

All in my opinion of course.

because speakers have return rights, and then resell value. the app does not.
Yes I understand what you meant, but it's about perceived value. $200 is not nothing and many people will not want to spend that on things that are not certainly improving their system (to their perspective)

 

[Dobbyisfree]

because speakers have return rights, and then resell value. the app does not.
Yes I understand what you meant, but it's about perceived value. $200 is not nothing and many people will not want to spend that on things that are not certainly improving their system (to their perspective)

I agree they are likely some of the reasons.

I was helping out a guy a few months back who has an AVC A110. He'd spent over 3 grand on an AVR and was sat fiddling with curves on a phone screen.

I think, to add, it's also about "what the AVR comes with". So, for example, complain about a £15 Audyssey app because Denons have come with Audyssey for years but then happily spend £350 on DIRAC (without DLBC).

 

[susanstone]

My understanding is that If your speaker has a dip in a specific frequency range, it is better to disable MRC and then create a dip in the target curve to meet the designed dip. With MultEQ X, or the MultEQ Editor app, that can be done.

MRC would otherwise, puts a dip centers at around 2 kHz, that may not be good, unless your speaker is designed to have such a dip centered at 2 kHz.

That is basically my point too. Saying 'disable MRC' is kind of misleading. the dip is supposed to be around 2kHz, why speaker is designed to be at a different dip? unless one knows what he/she is doing, MRC should be enabled.

 

[dlaloum]

That is basically my point too. Saying 'disable MRC' is kind of misleading. the dip is supposed to be around 2kHz, why speaker is designed to be at a different dip? unless one knows what he/she is doing, MRC should be enabled.

The MRC or BBC dip, is based on some assumptions about speaker designs, which were valid in a particular time and place, and for a particular type of speaker.

Unless you have a speaker of that type (and vintage?) - changes are that this "dip" is either completely redundant (and therefore reducing the quality of your end result!) - or should be relocated to a frequency that matches the crossover frequency(ies) used on your own speaker(s)...

So fundamentally, the dip works for a minority of the marketplace.... and reduces the quality enjoyed by the majority.

With multeq-X you can place a dip wherever your speakers need it.

 

[SCR]

Trying to understand how surround sound with different speakers is handled on the X3800/Audyssey. I have LR speakers reaching down to 25Hz@-6 dB, but the smaller center speaker only manages 55Hz, does Audyssey use the LR speakers to extend the bass range of the center like a sub?
I do not have a subwoofer with LR managing all the bass i need, and don't even know if a surround mix has low bass on the center at all, just curious.

 

[Dobbyisfree]

Trying to understand how surround sound with different speakers is handled on the X3800/Audyssey. I have LR speakers reaching down to 25Hz@-6 dB, but the smaller center speaker only manages 55Hz, does Audyssey use the LR speakers to extend the bass range of the center like a sub?
I do not have a subwoofer with LR managing all the bass i need, and don't even know if a surround mix has low bass on the center at all, just curious.

Most Denons up to last year could direct the LFE channel, with no sub connected, only to Fronts.

A new feature included on your x3800 is bass distribution. Any speakers you set to large, you can choose an amount (I believe 0 to -20dB) of LFE to send to them.

As I am sure you are aware be very careful. LFE channel peaks can be up to 115dB if listening at reference level and at very low frequencies.

I asked someone nicely to study how much low bass there is in surround channels (not LFE) I'm a couple of different films (one was Maverick). When this was mapped out it was very surprising that there is a lot. So consider with your surrounds set to large they have to cope with that let alone any redistributed LFE channel.

Perhaps try with just your surrounds set to large but no redistribution. Then your are relieving your fronts of the crossed over bass from the surround channels at least.

 

[SCR]

Thanks! I understand that the "LFE" channel is special in that it is not a "summed" subwoofer channel but a dedicated channel for an additional bass signal.
I was wondering if the bass part of the center speaker (if there is any) could be routed to the LR speakers if the center speaker is not capable of reproducing those. It sounds like this can only be done for the LFE channel, but not for the center speaker?

 

[Dobbyisfree]

Thanks! I understand that the "LFE" channel is special in that it is not a "summed" subwoofer channel but a dedicated channel for an additional bass signal.
I was wondering if the bass part of the center speaker (if there is any) could be routed to the LR speakers if the center speaker is not capable of reproducing those. It sounds like this can only be done for the LFE channel, but not for the center speaker?

Yes. Without subwoofer, you still can allocate any speaker except the front LR as "small". And the set its crossover so the rolled off bass below the crossover will be sent to front LR.

You cannot choose other speakers to take on the crossed over bass though. The new feature can only distribute LFE as you say.

 

[susanstone]

The MRC or BBC dip, is based on some assumptions about speaker designs, which were valid in a particular time and place, and for a particular type of speaker.

Unless you have a speaker of that type (and vintage?) - changes are that this "dip" is either completely redundant (and therefore reducing the quality of your end result!) - or should be relocated to a frequency that matches the crossover frequency(ies) used on your own speaker(s)...

So fundamentally, the dip works for a minority of the marketplace.... and reduces the quality enjoyed by the majority.

With multeq-X you can place a dip wherever your speakers need it.

no, BBC dip is based on how human react to the frequency. human likes BBC dip so speaker is designed to match that dip. Not other way around. of course, you can design or move the dip anywhere, that does not mean human like that non-BBC dip.

 

[Kaizenfury]

I could be wrong but the MRC dip is also in the range that would affect dialogue clarity. The dialogue enhancer raises a broad curve from 1-3k.

 

[dlaloum]

I could be wrong but the MRC dip is also in the range that would affect dialogue clarity. The dialogue enhancer raises a broad curve from 1-3k.

And the BBC dip reduces that range - resulting in dailogue clarity issues.... no surprises