Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[EWL5]

I can think of many factors, such as:

- physical design in the layout, if you look at the Denon A1H, and many of the relatively expensive McIntosh's and Luxman amps, EI core Tx might have fit better than Toroids.
- shielding scheme design, in some cases, the designers may prefer toroidal because it is better in terms of lesser less leakage vs EI core ones. Denon custom designed their EI core tx to address the more leakage flux/EMI related issues.
- Cost, on all else being equal basis, toroids are more costly, though all else are usually not equal. Two of my cheapest amp, QSC RMX850a I ever purchased, C$338, about US$260 in 2017, now about USD700!, and my also cheap NAD C326, uses toroids, my vintage Marantz amp uses EI core, that's examples that show cost is not always the factor.
- Weight, also on all else being equal basis, toroids would likely weigh less.
- Start up surge current: toroids typically have much higher inrush currents (again, only if all else being equal), so for larger power amps, it may cost more if the designer has to include some sort of soft start circuitry.

Here's a technical article on the benefits of EI core transformers, for audio amps:

SoundStage! Max dB - The High-End Mythology of the Toroidal Power Transformer (07/1998)

"But putting an EI-frame in a tightly packed multi-channel amp or receiver is just about impossible...there just isn’t enough room to stay away from the radiated magnetic field. In those applications, you will almost always find toroidal power transformers."

Are EI-frame transformers more prevalent in home audio now since the '98 article?

 

[peng]

But "7.07*7.07*8 = 400 W into 8 ohms" would only be achievable if the maximum output voltage from your simplified numerical example were doubled (i.e. 56.56 V).

That is correct. The rail voltage of the avr-x4400, x4500H are >60 Vrms so I don't consider it volltage limited, but current limited, most likely same for the x4700, x4800h.

As I said, it would have been better if manufacturers would include their voltage and current limit, instead of power. But they won't do that, nor would they tell us the power transformer VA rating. Some separate power amps manufacturers do, such as Parasound, but they typically did it in a wishy washy way. Most, such as Emotiva, Anthem, would just describe their transformers "huge", without the VA, V, I, "huge" is subjective lol...

 

[peng]

"But putting an EI-frame in a tightly packed multi-channel amp or receiver is just about impossible...there just isn’t enough room to stay away from the radiated magnetic field. In those applications, you will almost always find toroidal power transformers."

Are EI-frame transformers more prevalent in home audio now since the '98 article?

That's not true, not always anyway, Denon designed and built them with minimized leakage flux, evidence in their SINAD, SNR bench test results, vs many amps, even separate power amps, that have toroids.
The X8500H and A1H are jam packed, yet their noise specs and measurements are exvellent, for multichannel devices.

 

[peng]

Let's beat this thing to death so we don't hear it anymore:

- Hear what Gene (like Amir, they both have direct contact to Masimo) has to say about the toroid question, from time mark 1:55

He may be right, and he might have it got it from Masimo, that the E core would fit better as you can orient it differently to fit the targeted width and depth, whereas the toroid, being round, there is only one way.

In either case, they must have done a good job in shielding. I do give Marantz the credit for encapsulating their toroidal tx to control EMI even better. They also encapsulated my old AV7005's E core, but in doing so they made it look exactly like a toroid, and it was funny because I had to contact Marantz about why they didn't advertise the AV7005's as having a toroid, and that's they they told me it was not a toroid, but encapsulated in a toroidal case.

Lastly, at the end of the day, we can do better relying on actual results:
If you just compare the noise, the Marantz SR8015's toroidal transformer might not have contributed much (may be a few dB better here and there) to lower noise level than the Denon AVR-X4700H's E core. Keep in mind the SR8015's overall SINAD score was actually slightly better, in fact it is the only Marantz AVR measured on ASR that produced practical equal SINAD performance to its Denon cousins.

-

Finally, take a look of some of the expensive USD10,000 to 20,000 range amp's EI Core trannies:

From the $20,000 Luxman power amp that doubles down from 150 to 300 W, 8/4 ohms, and is quite credible based on the 1,250 VA transformer as shown:

McIntosh tube amps seem to use non toroidal transformer but they are encapsulated so it is hard to say for sure:

 

[Stiffmeister]

Ok guys, help me out. I have this x3800h receiver and a while ago I hooked up my crown XLS1502 amp to the FL and FR through the pre outs of the denon. When putting the receiver in direct mode ( no crossover to subwoofers, just full range sound through two Focal Aria 948) the speakers really came to life. I know, this wasnt a double blind test but the bass was more controlled and it was a lot more dynamic. The only letdown was the hiss from this amp which was very noticeable from 4 meters distance. So, this is where the itch came from. I want to add a high powered amp to my pre outs. My eye fell on hypex amps from audiophonics or nord acoustics but I read on this forum that the input sensitivity of these amps are too low for the pre out voltage these receivers can output. I’m somewhat of a novice and see a lot of contradicting views about what the usable pre out voltage of this receiver is. Is there a final answer to this question? And to help me out: if the specs of an amp say 500W at 4 ohms and 26dB sensitivity. How do you calculate what input voltage you need to get maximum power from this amp? I hope you guys can help me out because I want to learn and make a sensible choice without burning my money. Thanks in advance

 

[peng]

Ok guys, help me out. I have this x3800h receiver and a while ago I hooked up my crown XLS1502 amp to the FL and FR through the pre outs of the denon. When putting the receiver in direct mode ( no crossover to subwoofers, just full range sound through two Focal Aria 948) the speakers really came to life. I know, this wasnt a double blind test but the bass was more controlled and it was a lot more dynamic. The only letdown was the hiss from this amp which was very noticeable from 4 meters distance. So, this is where the itch came from. I want to add a high powered amp to my pre outs. My eye fell on hypex amps from audiophonics or nord acoustics but I read on this forum that the input sensitivity of these amps are too low for the pre out voltage these receivers can output. I’m somewhat of a novice and see a lot of contradicting views about what the usable pre out voltage of this receiver is. Is there a final answer to this question? And to help me out: if the specs of an amp say 500W at 4 ohms and 26dB sensitivity. How do you calculate what input voltage you need to get maximum power from this amp? I hope you guys can help me out because I want to learn and make a sensible choice without burning my money. Thanks in advance

First of all, the 26 dB is obviously not sensitivity, it is gain, though the two are directly related.

You can use the power formula:

P = V^2/R, V = √(P*R)

For 500 W, 4 ohms, V = √(500*4) = 44.72 V

then use the gain formula:

Gain in multiples = Vo/Vi
Gain in dB (log scale) = 20 log10(Vo/Vi), that is, Vo = Vi*10^(G in dB/20), or Vi = Vo/(10^(Gain in dB/20)) = 44.72/10^(26/20) = 2.24 V

So, if you use the formula above correctly, the answer is, the input voltage you need to get 500 W into 4 ohms is 2.2415 V. The X3800H can output a lot more than 2.24 V. For the same spl, you will have to turn the volume up because the Audiohphonic amp's gain (26 dB according to you) is 3 dB lower than that of the X3800H's own power amps.

Whenever you want to do your own calculations, try the following website, that most likely has all the formula you need, but you will have to click on the links as not all of them can fit into one page.

Voltage current resistance and electric power general basic electrical formulas mathematical calculations calculator formula for power calculating energy work equation power law watts understandimg general electrical pie chart electricity calculation

Electric power calculator calculation general basic electrical formulas mathematical voltage electrical equation formula for power calculating energy work power watts calculator equation power law current charge resistance converter ohm's law and power law power formulae formulas understandimg...

www.sengpielaudio.com

Decibels to Voltage Gain and Loss convert calculation conversion amplification amplifier electronics - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Gain and loss - damping and amplification in dB voltage conversioncalculation amplification amplifier electronics - field parameter - Eberhard Sengpiel sengpielaudio

www.sengpielaudio.com

Calculation voltage and power - gain and loss - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Calculation: Voltage and Power - Gain and Loss - Eberhard Sengpiel sengpielaudio

www.sengpielaudio.com

 

[dlaloum]

Ok guys, help me out. I have this x3800h receiver and a while ago I hooked up my crown XLS1502 amp to the FL and FR through the pre outs of the denon. When putting the receiver in direct mode ( no crossover to subwoofers, just full range sound through two Focal Aria 948) the speakers really came to life. I know, this wasnt a double blind test but the bass was more controlled and it was a lot more dynamic. The only letdown was the hiss from this amp which was very noticeable from 4 meters distance. So, this is where the itch came from. I want to add a high powered amp to my pre outs. My eye fell on hypex amps from audiophonics or nord acoustics but I read on this forum that the input sensitivity of these amps are too low for the pre out voltage these receivers can output. I’m somewhat of a novice and see a lot of contradicting views about what the usable pre out voltage of this receiver is. Is there a final answer to this question? And to help me out: if the specs of an amp say 500W at 4 ohms and 26dB sensitivity. How do you calculate what input voltage you need to get maximum power from this amp? I hope you guys can help me out because I want to learn and make a sensible choice without burning my money. Thanks in advance

I run an XLS2500 - very similar previous generation of the same family.

Most common cause of Hiss, will be overly agressive gain settings.... turn it down ... it has adjustable gain

The 1502 has both "domestic" (low V, high gain) and "Pro/XLR" (high V, low gain) - and for both of these inputs you can further adjust the gain

I would mess about with these ... you have a huge number of possible settings options!

Your AVR is capable of driving the 1502 to max W, on both inputs, and a multitude of gain settings on each of them... but as you have found out, some settings will boost noise to unacceptable levels (typically a sign of too much gain!)

 

[Stiffmeister]

First of all, the 26 dB is obviously not sensitivity, it is gain, though the two are directly related.

You can use the power formula:

P = V^2/R, V = √(P*R)

For 500 W, 4 ohms, V = √(500*4) = 44.72 V

then use the gain formula:

Gain in multiples = Vo/Vi
Gain in dB (log scale) = 20 log10(Vo/Vi), that is, Vo = Vi*10^(G in dB/20), or Vi = Vo/(10^(Gain in dB/20)) = 44.72/10^(26/20) = 2.24 V

So, if you use the formula above correctly, the answer is, the input voltage you need to get 500 W into 4 ohms is 2.2415 V. The X3800H can output a lot more than 2.24 V. For the same spl, you will have to turn the volume up because the Audiohphonic amp's gain (26 dB according to you) is 3 dB lower than that of the X3800H's own power amps.

Whenever you want to do your own calculations, try the following website, that most likely has all the formula you need, but you will have to click on the links as not all of them can fit into one page.

Voltage current resistance and electric power general basic electrical formulas mathematical calculations calculator formula for power calculating energy work equation power law watts understandimg general electrical pie chart electricity calculation

Electric power calculator calculation general basic electrical formulas mathematical voltage electrical equation formula for power calculating energy work power watts calculator equation power law current charge resistance converter ohm's law and power law power formulae formulas understandimg...

www.sengpielaudio.com

Decibels to Voltage Gain and Loss convert calculation conversion amplification amplifier electronics - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Gain and loss - damping and amplification in dB voltage conversioncalculation amplification amplifier electronics - field parameter - Eberhard Sengpiel sengpielaudio

www.sengpielaudio.com

Calculation voltage and power - gain and loss - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Calculation: Voltage and Power - Gain and Loss - Eberhard Sengpiel sengpielaudio

www.sengpielaudio.com

This is perfect! Thanks a lot peng!

 

[abdo123]

Does anyone know how often Denon releases these?

I wanna know if the next gen will be released late summer / early fall or is it going to be next year.

 

[ban25]

Does anyone know how often Denon releases these?

I wanna know if the next gen will be released late summer / early fall or is it going to be next year.

Probably 2024/2025. We do expect to see an X6800H later this year.

 

[popej]

Hi All!

I'm new here. I really appreciate your scientific approach to audio, it is really rare today.

Thanks to Amir review, I decided to swap my old Yamaha to Denon AVC-X3800H (version without radio). Sound quality didn't disappoint. After some tuning of Audyssey it was really great. Unfortunately device operation was strenuous, if not downright erratic. I wonder if my device was broken, my operation was unusual or my expectations were exaggerated? Internet search didn't show similar problems, so I'd like to consult users here.

During the first setup, amplifier updated its firmware. It showed firmware number but nothing like numbers on Denon's support page. Is it normal?. Since amplifier worked erratic, I have decided to do a factory reset. When I did manual setup again, amplifier turned off by itself twice. Bad firmware or broken device? Maybe sources attached by HDMI went to standby and turned of amplifier? Anyway, it shouldn't behave like this. Fortunately this never repeated later.

Functionality of Denon's remote is limited. I expect, that I can at least turn on TV. Yamaha can do it by HDMI-CEC (maybe by IR too), Denon offers no solution, one have to grab another remote. Other buttons on Denon remote aren't transmitted by HDMI-CEC. I can equally use cursors on Yamaha, Samsung TV or Android TV remote, but not with Denon.

HDMI-CEC power on was erratic, sometimes it worked, sometimes not. This was repeatable:
Turn on amplifier by HEOS button. Display shows something like "Assigning..." (?) then goes to internet radio.
Press "home" button on Google TV remote. This sends HDMI-CEC command, which should turn on TV and switch HDMI source. TV turns on, audio source switches to TV, video source remains on HEOS, not good.
Grab Denon's remote, press proper HDMI source button. Display on amplifier shows Google TV as a source but TV screen goes blank, no video signal.
Select other unconnected HDMI source, then back to Google TV and finally all is set as it should be.

Because I didin't want to deal with erratic behavior and constant swapping of remotes, I sent amplifier back to seller. Still I like Denon's audio quality and functions like Audyssey and Dynamic EQ. Is there any hope for improved operation? Did I something wrong? I confess, that was embarrassed to explain to my family, how to start Netflix. The procedure would contain like 3 conditions "if not... then...".

 

[EWL5]

So I finally installed my 3800 this weekend and went through Audyssey calibration. The crossover selection was a bit odd and I'll be tweaking that this week (I'm pretty sure my ML SLM X3 L/C/R speaker should be ~150 Hz). There's definitely less action from my sub and the overall feeling is that the current setup is more "laid back" than the "forward" sound of the Pioneer Elite it replaced. I do realize I didn't do an apples to apples swap as the 3800 is at least a half step down from my Pioneer SC-LX701 if not a full step down. So far it's just been TV and movies and no critical listening w/music yet. I'll hold off on Dirac calibration until a nice sale (someone suggested Black Friday?).

The most painful lesson is that I'm not able to run Zone 2 (dining room). The previous Pioneer allowed me to assign unused height channels to Zone 2/3 and I simply don't have speaker level connections on the 3800. If I keep the 3800, I'll probably keep the Pioneer for other zone duties. I paid $1300 and I honestly think this should have been the retail price and not a "sale price".

 

[snaxez]

Upgraded from AVR-X3400H. Bought one from iear.nl for 979€ and free shipping. Hope it get`s delivered ok. Would have loved X4800H, but the cheapest I could find was 1795€ and I couldn't justify extra 816€.

 

[delta76]

Upgraded from AVR-X3400H. Bought one from iear.nl for 979€ and free shipping. Hope it get`s delivered ok. Would have loved X4800H, but the cheapest I could find was 1795€ and I couldn't justify extra 816€.

congratulations. apparently x3800h is not selling that well, it has been on sale left and right.

 

[dlaloum]

congratulations. apparently x3800h is not selling that well, it has been on sale left and right.

Or they raised the price to an unrealistic level, and have brought it back to a realistic market price via "sales"

 

[delta76]

Or they raised the price to an unrealistic level, and have brought it back to a realistic market price via "sales"

should it have been selling well, we probably get sales to 1499 or 1399, max. it seems they positioned their products badly

 

[Kaizenfury]

I have a question regarding mid range compensation. Will my 3800 apply mid range compensation after running Audyssey without using the phone app? I'm asking this because I was hoping that didn't need to buy the phone app to get rid of the compensation. I figure there was a chance that mid range compensation would be added only if you use the phone app for calibration.

 

[Sancus]

I have a question regarding mid range compensation. Will my 3800 apply mid range compensation after running Audyssey without using the phone app? I'm asking this because I was hoping that didn't need to buy the phone app to get rid of the compensation. I figure there was a chance that mid range compensation would be added only if you use the phone app for calibration.

Midrange compensation is on by default always. The phone app merely lets you turn it off, otherwise you're stuck with it.

 

[EWL5]

Midrange compensation is on by default always. The phone app merely lets you turn it off, otherwise you're stuck with it.

So Denon guaranteed themselves an additional $20 w/crappy out-of-the-box calibration?

 

[ban25]

So Denon guaranteed themselves an additional $20 w/crappy out-of-the-box calibration?

On the contrary, almost nobody outside of these forums is aware of the application of MRC, so this decision mostly serves to destroy the reputation of Audyssey, driving everyone towards Dirac instead.