Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Chromatischism]

I wonder what "Bass Sync" is?

Also, I forgot about component and composite to HDMI conversion, essential if you hook up an older game console.

 

[Sancus]

I wonder what "Bass Sync" is?

Also, I forgot about component and composite to HDMI conversion, essential if you hook up an older game console.

It's a separate delay setting for the LFE only, you can find it in the manual. It's not much, 0-16ms.

They claim sometimes the LFE is mixed wrong and delayed relative to the rest of the channels, so you can adjust it separately this way. I am skeptical this has any real use.

 

[Chromatischism]

Too bad it's LFE only and not redirected bass, then someone might find it useful.

 

[NeedForSpeed73]

How much do you want to bet? It’s $499 for all other AVR’s, why would it de different for Denon or Marantz?

No, you are wrong: for Arcam multi-sub version is available only from the AVR31 up (you can check yourself: https://www.dirac.com/online-store/).

 

[NeedForSpeed73]

[CUT] As a licenced product, where the licence is a fixed fee, that’s how they make money… they make no extra money based off the cost of the device implementing their software. The reason (IMO) DLBC is currently only available/confirmed on super high $$$ AVR’s is that until recently, it (Dirac) was a super niche offering. And the ultra expensive, niche brands often cater to people seeking that bleeding edge tech, and implement it first.

What Denon is doing here is opening up a huge new customer base/segment for Dirac to make potentially a ton of money off of. No way they are not looking to capitalize on that.

The only way I could see what you’re saying becoming a factor is if Arcam and the other premiere brands currently offering the “upgraded” Dirac features have an exclusivity deal with Dirac on them - all signs point to that not likely being the case, and several signs directly indicate otherwise.

Just my 0.02 (which is about all the money I’d bet on it either way, as I am a humble public servant, and I need that 2 cents to pay for these upgrades).

I guess it's a marketing choice, probably Dirac wants to keep a hierarchy of its offering (basic Dirac Live, DLBC single, DLBC multi) and just license its most sophisticated solutions just for high-end products. They'll always justify it saying that the cheaper models don't have enough processing power (and that might also be true).

 

[voodooless]

No, you are wrong: for Arcam multi-sub version is available only from the AVR31 up (you can check yourself: https://www.dirac.com/online-store/).

.. as in: all AVR's that support it. They all cost $499. So no reason to think the Denon version will be more expensive. If an AVR only has a single sub-output, it obviously cannot support multi-sub DBLC. As far as I can see, I can order a multi sub for AVR20, and AVR21. AVR10 and AVR11 only have a single sub out, so no multi-sub. I don't see a problem here..

 

[GalZohar]

Too bad it's LFE only and not redirected bass, then someone might find it useful.

You can delay your subwoofers separately... This is supposedly for a different purpose. Have never heard of a real use case for it, though.

 

[NeedForSpeed73]

.. as in: all AVR's that support it. They all cost $499. So no reason to think the Denon version will be more expensive. If an AVR only has a single sub-output, it obviously cannot support multi-sub DBLC. As far as I can see, I can order a multi sub for AVR20, and AVR21. AVR10 and AVR11 only have a single sub out, so no multi-sub. I don't see a problem here..

I'm not afraid it'll be more expensive, I'm afraid it'll not be available at all. Maybe the multiple subwoofer outputs will be used just for Audissey that will remain alongside Dirac Live (at least in this year's machines). Anyways, I hope you are right and I'm wrong, I'm waiting till March to replace my old Onkyo PR-RZ5100 and I'd be a lot happy to save 2000$/€ buying the 3800 instead of the Arcam AVR11 and have even more features with DLBC multi-sub.

 

[voodooless]

I'm not afraid it'll be more expensive

You said:

and you must also pay more than 500$/€ for it

That is clearly incorrect.

 

[NeedForSpeed73]

You said:

That is clearly incorrect.

Yes, that was a typo (I corrected it now), I meant that on top of the higher price of the supported device, you have to add the 500$ for the license.

 

[bob5200]

Very cool. Do you have this for Marantz?

The charts were posted by another member here....trying to find the post. I did not find anything similar on the French website. Really wish the US arm would do this.

 

[Chromatischism]

You can delay your subwoofers separately... This is supposedly for a different purpose. Have never heard of a real use case for it, though.

Of course you can, unless you're the guy on AVS needing more delay due to DSP or wireless latency.

 

[NeedForSpeed73]

They're not getting DLBC until 2024 at the earliest. By that time, those high-end processors will have moved on to Active Room Treatment. Once ART is available, DLBC stops being special. While the timeline is not concrete yet, it's not like it's a rumor or something. They told Audioholics directly. You can say maybe they're mistaken or they'll change their minds or whatever, but any manufacturer can do that.

According to Matthew Pose (Audioholics) in this video, ART, using all the surround speakers for room correction, will need these to be full range and the amplification a lot more powerful than the usual 100W-200W, 1 channel driven of consumer level AVRs. So something you won't achieve with a simple firmware upgrade and will make sense only for the lucky ones who have a professionally built home cinema, with multiple amplification and a 5 figures processor like a StormAudio (who are the first ones to have announced ART support in an upcoming update).

 

[Chromatischism]

Newton's third law in effect.

 

[Sancus]

According to Matthew Pose (Audioholics) in this video, ART, using all the surround speakers for room correction, will need these to be full range and the amplification a lot more powerful than the usual 100W-200W, 1 channel driven of consumer level AVRs. So something you won't achieve with a simple firmware upgrade and will make sense only for the lucky ones who have a professionally built home cinema, with multiple amplification and a 5 figures processor like a StormAudio (who are the first ones to have announced ART support in an upcoming update).

On this very forum we have beta testers with 2x5" Polks for surrounds reporting great results. That's weaker than many larger bookshelves. So I suspect the speculation-without-testing by a random third party to be ... slightly exaggerated. Pro-tip, Matthew Poes sells those high-end products and theatres

ART makes the most sense in untreated rooms. I can guarantee that Dirac intends it to be useful in normal home theatres.

 

[Chromatischism]

Intuition tells me that such small speakers would see a huge increase in IMD if used for ART. Whether that matters would depend on the content, of course.

 

[Sancus]

Intuition tells me that such small speakers would see a huge increase in IMD if used for ART. Whether that matters would depend on the content, of course.

"It would do some improvement [in a stereo setup with two full-range speakers] but um obviously the more speakers you add especially subwoofers you will get more and more...better performance."

Subwoofers participate in ART and in fact according to Dirac are more important than additional speakers. So I think the focus on "full-range speakers" is just a mistake caused by assumptions of people who haven't actually used the thing.

Keep in mind it's going to be limited to 500hz and even if a sub crossover is 80hz there is tons of excess capacity above that frequency in many subwoofers. There's no reason subs can't play the cancellation above their crossovers, if every speaker and sub is playing a similar/identical delayed-cancellation signal it's not going to be "localizable" anyway.

Might be a reason for me to go from 2->4 subs though.

 

[abdo123]

"It would do some improvement [in a stereo setup with two full-range speakers] but um obviously the more speakers you add especially subwoofers you will get more and more...better performance."

Subwoofers participate in ART and in fact according to Dirac are more important than additional speakers. So I think the focus on "full-range speakers" is just a mistake caused by assumptions of people who haven't actually used the thing.

Keep in mind it's going to be limited to 500hz and even if a sub crossover is 80hz there is tons of excess capacity above that frequency in many subwoofers. There's no reason subs can't play the cancellation above their crossovers, if every speaker and sub is playing a similar/identical delayed-cancellation signal it's not going to be "localizable" anyway.

Might be a reason for me to go from 2->4 subs though.

I think the comment stems from the fact that the range that subwoofers play is the range that needs the most fixing, and that subwoofers are capable of much higher outputs and can be placed in asymmetrical positions while speakers have a fixed symmetric position in a layout.

There is no reason to assume a full range speaker with the sub-bass capabilities of a subwoofer would not behave exactly the same.

 

[NeedForSpeed73]

On this very forum we have beta testers with 2x5" Polks for surrounds reporting great results. That's weaker than many larger bookshelves. So I suspect the speculation-without-testing by a random third party to be ... slightly exaggerated. Pro-tip, Matthew Poes sells those high-end products and theatres

ART makes the most sense in untreated rooms. I can guarantee that Dirac intends it to be useful in normal home theatres.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you, but I’m afraid ART will be (correctly) implemented only with very expensive setups. I’m waiting March to replace my Onkyo PR-RZ5100 to see what happens with all the Dirac-Sound United situation. I’m still skeptical multi-sub DLBC will be available on sub-2000$/€ receivers, let alone ART that needs a lot more processing power (and acoustic power).

 

[voodooless]

let alone ART that needs a lot more processing power (and acoustic power).

From the information Dirac has divulged, it only about 20% more processing power than multi-sub DLBC.