Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Roland68]

If I remember right, you mentioned "implementation", did you use those demo boards the manufacturer's supplied? And am I right to assume those blind tests were done with everything else the same except just the DAC boards? Thanks.

The EVM and three other boards available at the time, two of which were relatively identical to the standard layout and the third more spartan.

 

[Miker 1102]

At the time, we compared various inexpensive boards for Raspberry and with i2s interfaces for a project, including PCM5102 and ES9018K2M. The difference we heard was clear enough and according to the two measuring technicians involved (one in the field of digital technology and one in the application development department), this could not be attributed to the Sinad values or other data in the data sheets. Of course, this could also have been due to the implementation.
However, the PCM5xxx don't exactly have a reputation as a sound miracle and they are said to be somewhat anemic.

What bothers me is that Denon is saving so much in this price range and only spends €/$10-12 on all the DAC chips available, and that is probably a high estimate.
In my opinion, significantly better ESS DAC chips would have cost around €/$20-25, probably less.
But that is just my opinion, nobody else has to share it.

I agree subjectively. When using the 3800, I simply replaced a 4500 with the same room, settings, editing (sound curve) and found the sound with music clinical/anemic. I didn't want to invest more money into Dirac in the 3800. I simply switched back to the 4500. I am not sure I will upgrade again but probably just a bit better two channel.

 

[lewdish]

Why is it taking so long to go back to AKM? Heck, Apple dongles have better performance..

Im curious why they actually didn't go to Cirrus logic tbh unless their layouts are incompatible or some more complicated reasons

 

[peng]

Im curious why they actually didn't go to Cirrus logic tbh unless their layouts are incompatible or some more complicated reasons

They could stay with TI, just need to use one of their chips that has SINAD spec >100 dB.
One of those expensive Trinnov also use TI DAC chip, not even a TI flagship DAC chip that Denon and Marantz have used in the past. Only 100 dB but that's 7 dB better than the one they currently used on their AVR-X4800H and Cinema 40, SR8015 as well. Again, no idea why they went backward, when they could have pick another TI DAC chip that has >106 dB SINAD, if TI is the one they prefer for whatever reasons.

Trinnov Altitude 32 Review

Trinnov Altitude 32 Review and Measurements This is a review and some measurements of a Trinnov Altitude 32. This is an older unit with components that are several generations old. What makes the Altitude 32 different from the Altitude 16 is the ability to use AES/EBU digital outputs for all...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Roland68]

Im curious why they actually didn't go to Cirrus logic tbh unless their layouts are incompatible or some more complicated reasons

They could stay with TI, just need to use one of their chips that has SINAD spec >100 dB.
One of those expensive Trinnov also use TI DAC chip, not even a TI flagship DAC chip that Denon and Marantz have used in the past. Only 100 dB but that's 7 dB better than the one they currently used on their AVR-X4800H and Cinema 40, SR8015 as well. Again, no idea why they went backward, when they could have pick another TI DAC chip that has >106 dB SINAD, if TI is the one they prefer for whatever reasons.

Trinnov Altitude 32 Review

Trinnov Altitude 32 Review and Measurements This is a review and some measurements of a Trinnov Altitude 32. This is an older unit with components that are several generations old. What makes the Altitude 32 different from the Altitude 16 is the ability to use AES/EBU digital outputs for all...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I suspect that there are various factors.
- Lower development resources after the sale of Denon / cost savings.
- Generally greater cost savings after the sale
- Generally higher awareness of Burr Brown in the market.
- Easier and less sensitive integration of PCM5102
- Existing experience with PCM5102
- A certain time pressure during the changeover could also have been a factor.

One should not forget that the buyers from this forum only make up a very small percentage of the buyers for such devices.
For the majority of buyers, Burr Brown has a good name from the past, AKM and ESS are probably very little known, especially if someone has little to do with audio. Cirrus Logic doesn't have the best reputation from its PC past, sometimes even as a cheap chipset manufacturer. That is no longer justified today, but such a reputation lasts for a long time.

 

[squared80]

Why is it taking so long to go back to AKM? Heck, Apple dongles have better performance..

Why would a company shrink their profit margins on something that not a single person would be able to discern in blind testing.

 

[Bleib]

Why would a company shrink their profit margins on something that not a single person would be able to discern in blind testing.

Why do some people so easily pretty much always look it from the corporate perspective? I'm with Amir on this one, it's disappointing to get worse performance and often one should add...at a higher price.

 

[Oddball]

I guess if no corporate perspective and people not buying what the corporate offers at a profit that pleases investors, then you might as well be relying on DIY and limited if any parts available in that model.

These companies do what they want but as consumers we do have a fair amount of influence over them - albeit collectively and not individually. What you see and hear is the outcomes of that model.

 

[squared80]

Why do some people so easily pretty much always look it from the corporate perspective? I'm with Amir on this one, it's disappointing to get worse performance and often one should add...at a higher price.

You asked the question, dude. That's the answer. The higher end DAC ain't coming back. It started going away during COVID when supplies got low, and now that they're saving some money and 90%+ of buyers are none the wiser, why switch back. For the 10% or less? Nobody said it's not disappointing to get less for the money. Just being real.

 

[Bleib]

You asked the question, dude. That's the answer. The higher end DAC ain't coming back. It started going away during COVID when supplies got low, and now that they're saving some money and 90%+ of buyers are none the wiser, why switch back. For the 10% or less? Nobody said it's not disappointing to get less for the money. Just being real.

It's not covid..it's a fire

"While investigations into the fire that ravished Asahi Kasei Microdevices' (AKM) semiconductor factory in Nobeoka, Japan back in October 2020 has been completed, some questions still remain. The fire broke out on 20 October, 2020 and it took a total of three days to completely extinguish".
And of course it's not coming back if the consumers make no demands. Again one has to ask why people just bend over to corporate power.

 

[cdx47]

What you are saying about corporate power and not bending over for it is obviously correct.

But the bottom line is that I have a great sounding receiver (even more so after A1 Evo Nexus). So even though you are dead right, how does this issue actually affect me or others who already own an x3800h?

The point you are making is useful and the issue should be publicised to help those who are looking for a new receiver. This might shame Sound United enough to respond and maybe not do something similar in the future. That's about the best you can hope for right now.

 

[Miker 1102]

What you are saying about corporate power and not bending over for it is obviously correct.

But the bottom line is that I have a great sounding receiver (even more so after A1 Evo Nexus). So even though you are dead right, how does this issue actually affect me or others who already own an x3800h?

The point you are making is useful and the issue should be publicised to help those who are looking for a new receiver. This might shame Sound United enough to respond and maybe not do something similar in the future. That's about the best you can hope for right now.

It doesn't seem to really affect the owners of the 3800 in ways that make any significant differnce. Denon was able to get very ounce of performance out of the pcm ti dac per what I read in several review of bench test results on both the 3800H ans X4800H. The tests indicate there is no audible difference. My own take had not methodology and was strictly my own bias. Though, I will continue to avoid the x3800h as a music device.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

It doesn't seem to really affect the owners of the 3800 in ways that make any significant differnce. Denon was able to get very ounce of performance out of the pcm ti dac per what I read in several review of bench test results on both the 3800H ans X4800H. The tests indicate there is no audible difference. My own take had not methodology and was strictly my own bias. Though, I will continue to avoid the x3800h as a music device.

I appreciate the honesty. My take has been the opposite of yours as Audyssey added more compensation for a dip @ 30Hz than my front tower speakers were comfortable with. So besides sounding bass heavy and muddy, it could lose control of the woofers during bass heavy movie scenes. I lowered the boost from 5-6dB to 3dB with the MultEQ app, and that was ideal for me. A little tweaking for room response can go a long way. I actually prefer using the "flat" setting as my fronts need to be a little more "clinical" to use your word.

 

[Oddball]

I appreciate the honesty. My take has been the opposite of yours as Audyssey added more compensation for a dip @ 30Hz than my front tower speakers were comfortable with. So besides sounding bass heavy and muddy, it could lose control of the woofers during bass heavy movie scenes. I lowered the boost from 5-6dB to 3dB with the MultEQ app, and that was ideal for me. A little tweaking for room response can go a long way. I actually prefer using the "flat" setting as my fronts need to be a little more "clinical" to use your word.

You should track your measured response for the speakers but keep in mind that was at 75dB, so might need to back it off if listening at 100dB.

Good news is that MultiEQ-X will let you track your response curve with clinical precision and can achieve roll of just about precise as you need it to be - per individual speaker. Same as boost and where it starts and ends. MultiEQ D&M app will not be able to handle this level of complexity and precision, and will be much more difficult to squeeze out the level of performance you can have with MultiEQ-X.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

You should track your measured response for the speakers but keep in mind that was at 75dB, so might need to back it off if listening at 100dB.

Good news is that MultiEQ-X will let you track your response curve with clinical precision and can achieve roll of just about precise as you need it to be - per individual speaker. Same as boost and where it starts and ends. MultiEQ D&M app will not be able to handle this level of complexity and precision, and will be much more difficult to squeeze out the level of performance you can have with MultiEQ-X.

Just for clarification, I am using the MultEQ-X app on my PC to dial in some of the 11 speakers in my setup to the extent that I have gotten comfortable enough to know why and how much I might want to do so.

 

[Oddball]

Then you do have the right tools and should be able to create all the right curves that measure well and cater to your taste as well. Just mentioning as people often forget that $20 app is not the end of the Audy world but just about an entry ticket.

 

[cdx47]

I just use A1 Evo Nexus. Maybe those of you with expert knowledge can manually do better. But Nexus does way better calibration than Audyssey ever could and I couldn't be happier

Then you do have the right tools and should be able to create all the right curves that measure well and cater to your taste as well. Just mentioning as people often forget that $20 app is not the end of the Audy world but just about an entry ticket.

But with Nexus it's an entry ticket to a whole new world for both neophytes like myself to even the more experienced like yourselves

 

[dfiler]

I for one am in favor of manufacturers allocating their BOM budget on things with a perceivable improvement. Since I can't tell a difference, it's better for me that Denon spends their time and money elsewhere. Their products currently provide the best tradeoffs for my needs.

 

[Oddball]

I just use A1 Evo Nexus. Maybe those of you with expert knowledge can manually do better. But Nexus does way better calibration than Audyssey ever could and I couldn't be happier


But with Nexus it's an entry ticket to a whole new world for both neophytes like myself to even the more experienced like yourselves

As long as you are happy, IMO that’s really what matters. Enjoying the content is really the ultimate goal.

What ruins happiness is to go and question it from all sides. Happiness is not an engineering term or entirely scientific, so many people on the forum will ask all these questions to verify if the state of happiness is justified. And than there are various levels of happiness which might or not matter depending on the goals you set and capabilities or your system.

As your system gets more capable, it will be progressively more difficult to adjust it to the higher or highest levels of happiness. And of course at that level people will start to diverge as their preference might take them in different direction. It is great though that number of solutions is increasing.

 

[squared80]

On sale again for $949.