Denon AVR-X3800H sounds bass-heavy to my ears and markedly different (worse) than the subjectively flat AVR-X3600H - why?

[EWL5]

@Veganfloyd, one Audyssey tip I can offer: your fronts are showing that characteristic 1.8kHz dip. Since you have the app, turn off Midrange Compensation (MRC).

 

[peng]

Yes, it's SINAD related but I rather have 2.0V (Pre-out only) going to an external amplifier vs 1.4V (Spkr + Pre-out)!

That's the misleading part though if you don't mind, because someone could interpret that as limited to 1.4 V when choosing speaker+preout, that is clearly false. Either way you will still get the same, or almost the same output voltage limit, right up to at least 3.5 V, if not the maximum limited by the volume control IC and opamps in the pre out signal path. At closer to the limit, such as 4 V, yes SINAD will likely drop to lower than 70 dB, but clipping is generally considered as SINAD reaching about 40 dB, that is 1%.

I used the following as an example a few time, but that's long time ago so I thought I should post it for new comers to see:

The X3300W, is 3 to 4 generations older than the current X3800H, it absolutely has no preamp mode, that is only speaker+preouts, volume control, opamp, dac ICs and circuitry were all very similar to the X3400H through X3800H.

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X networking AV receiver features the latest in HD audio and video processing, music streaming and offers future expandability with solid preamp outputs.

www.audioholics.com

One can just read Gene's comments, if not the whole review:

Denon AVR-X3300W Preamplifier Measurements

One thing I really love about Denon receivers is they NEVER skimp on their preamp out circuits. Like past models, the AVR-X3300W had an ample amount of drive. I measured a whopping 4.5Vrms unclipped output, which is more than double the voltage needed to make virtually any amplifier reach full rated power. Yamaha please pay attention and step your game up particularly with your AV receivers in this price range that clip above 1.6Vrms. A preamp output of less than 2Vrms is unacceptable in my book.

 

[EWL5]

That's the misleading part though if you don't mind, because someone could interpret that as limited to 1.4 V when choosing speaker+preout, that is clearly false. Either way you will still get the same, or almost the same output voltage limit, right up to at least 3.5 V, if not the maximum limited by the volume control IC and opamps in the pre out signal path. At closer to the limit, such as 4 V, yes SINAD will likely drop to lower than 70 dB, but clipping is generally considered as SINAD reaching about 40 dB, that is 1%.

I used the following as an example a few time, but that's long time ago so I thought I should post it for new comers to see:

The X3300W, is 3 to 4 generations older than the current X3800H, it absolutely has no preamp mode, that is only speaker+preouts, volume control, opamp, dac ICs and circuitry were all very similar to the X3400H through X3800H.

Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Denon AVR-X3300W 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X networking AV receiver features the latest in HD audio and video processing, music streaming and offers future expandability with solid preamp outputs.

www.audioholics.com

One can just read Gene's comments, if not the whole review:

Agreed on all points. A simple toggle gets you “free additional performance” so why not?

 

[peng]

Agreed on all points. A simple toggle gets you “free additional performance” so why not?

Absolutely, for example, I have taken enough measurements to know that in any of my rooms, even 1 V will be more than enough for my power amps based on my listening habit, amp gain and speaker sensitivities, but given the choice I would definitely target devices that can do up to 4 V/8 V RCA/XLR at SINAD no less than 70 dB.

For those who don't have the luxury to ensure 4 V at high SINAD, could ease their mind by reminding themselves of the table pre out Vrms vs amp gain vs power amp output table I posted in the X6700H thread a few days ago:

Denon AVR-X6700H with Buckeye NCx500

I know this has been beat to death...but i still have not found a definitive answer: I want to use pre-amp out on my Denon AVR-X6700H (L/C/R) and also use the Avr's remaining internal amps for the remaining Atmos/Auro speaker array (11.1). When used in this fashion, the Denon's pre-amp output...

www.audiosciencereview.com

For the 25.5 dB gain buckeyeamps, just 1.4 V will drive it to 174 W, 4 ohm load. Most people listen to spl with a few watts average with peaks to 100-300 W, so 1.4 V will be able to achieve such use. For me, the average power I need is less than 0.5 W 8 ohms, or 1 W 4 ohms, so even for the very high peaks in movies, it would not exceed 100 W.

Again, let me repeat, if possible I fully agree with EWL, go with preamps that can output 4 Vrms if unbalanced RCA, that way you will have tons of headroom that you hopefully never need but things will sound better psychologically because you know you have lots of reserve.

Gain:	25.5 dB
Pre out Vrms	Power amp Vout	Power amp output W
1.4	26.37	173.86
1.6	30.14	227.08
1.8	33.91	287.40
2	37.67	354.81
2.2	41.44	429.32
2.4	45.21	510.93
2.6	48.97	599.63
2.8	52.74	695.43
3	56.51	798.33
3.2	60.28	908.32

 

[Veganfloyd]

Don't get offended warning (as I may be stating the obvious things you already know...): In order to understand why, you should first make sure you are comparing apples to apples and it is easier to do if you just use 2 channel in direct mode to eliminate the effects of DSP, and go from there. Then you need to compare without knowing which one you are listening to, this part is difficult to do for the obvious reasons, but if you know which one you are listening to then it doesn't matter what you think you are hearing, as very few people, if anyone, are not influenced by "knowing which one.....".

Did you compare in direct/pure direct mode with no DSP/Audyssey? As above if done sighted, it wouldn't count but if the differences were really "large", and was done in pure direct mode under the exact conditions (speakers, contents listened to, placements etc.), then I would say it is worth measure the actual frequency response with REW, the Umik-1 mic costs $79 plus shipping, you will need that if you don't have one yet.

That's generally true when no dsp functions are involved, with dsp in use, there will be audible differences, from subtle to the so called night and day kinds, it depends..

As soon as you started comparing with DSP in use, and even with Audyssey then it gets complicated and personal preference will start to dominate. For example, what you consider as bass heavy could be just fantastic for others. So on that, I would just wait and see what others have to say, as for me, once it gets into the subjective territory, there is nothing for me to say that could be helpful at all.

Thank you. The perceived differences described in my original post are apparent both pre-calibration, with Audyssey and in Direct mode. The description of the impact of different correction software choices was meant to illustrate the extent of the bass issue. Apologies for not stating the former clearly.

To clarify further with regards to advice from @palm , I do not use any dynamic EQ options.

I do have the UMIK mic, but I would need to learn how to take the measurements. I would be keen to do so, but I have never done it and might not have the time to learn in the immediate future if there is a high learning curve.

 

[Veganfloyd]

I believe that I found the cause and a potential solution.

Adding a subwoofer in the speaker layout settings (without actually adding a physical subwoofer to the setup) appears to fix the issue. This is without applying any crossover, i.e. all speakers set to 'full range' before and after this change in the settings. My guess is that by default Denon AVR-X3800H forces the LFE channel or the low-pass filter content derived for the subwoofer outs into the front speakers, thus effectively doubling the low-frequencies. Ironically, there are settings available to chose whether the LFE content should be added to non-subwoofer speakers and which ones, but they are inaccessible without a subwoofer(s) present in the Speakers Layout section.

The downside of this 'fix' is that both my Audyssey and Dirac calibrations were removed. Understandably so, but in the case of Audyssey this means the necessity to have a subwoofer at hand to complete the calibration as Audyssey stops if no sound is detected, and a major waste of time to re-run everything (11 speakers + now subwoofer, 8 positions, multiple retakes needed for unexpected sounds over the several minutes needed per position). I need to investigate if I can get a make-believe subwoofer added in Dirac more easily.

 

[Veganfloyd]

I checked the analogous impact of adding a subwoofer in the settings Denon AVR-X3600H on my subjective listening experience. This is again without adding a physical subwoofer and with all speakers set to full range. There was also a bass reduction, consistent with the behaviour of the X3800H. However, the low frequencies became too quiet, buried in the mix and lacking impact, as though a crossover was applied contrary to the settings.

In summary:
1. Denon AVR-X3800H without a subwoofer - way too much bass. Sounds defective.
2. Denon AVR-X3800H without a subwoofer + subwoofer on in the settings or Denon AVR-X3600H without a subwoofer - balanced sound in the same ballpark.
3. Denon AVR-X3600H without a subwoofer + subwoofer on in the settings - way too little bass.

I will hope to learn to take REW measurements with my UMIK and follow-up with objective measurements, though it might be weeks from now.

 

[gfx_1]

Just replaced my Marantz SR6007 because the input board didn't work anymore with a Denon X3800h Because it seemed an affordable option at 790 euro (777 german euros) and I never liked the small Maranz circular display. Both were used with the onboard amplifiers and no room correction yet. Cats don't like the setup noises and not enough time in a day. I tried Audyssey with the Marantz but didn't like the end result, so left it off.

I listened to some music and a film maybe a bit more low but not that I noticed it. Setup screens have hugely improved and the HEOS app works alright. No problems playing flac from the raspberry pi (via minidlnad) Speaker setup is still the same two large fronts, no sub because they go low enough and two bookshelf surrounds. No idea what to do with all the leftover channels. It didn't come with Dirac that seems an expensive option.

Did read the original review from Amir but forgotten about it until after ordering

Earc works but that really old hdmi cable needed replacing. Standards have changed not all hdmi cables are the same.

 

[peng]

Just replaced my Marantz SR6007 because the input board didn't work anymore with a Denon X3800h Because it seemed an affordable option at 790 euro (777 german euros) and I never liked the small Maranz circular display. Both were used with the onboard amplifiers and no room correction yet. Cats don't like the setup noises and not enough time in a day. I tried Audyssey with the Marantz but didn't like the end result, so left it off.

I listened to some music and a film maybe a bit more low but not that I noticed it. Setup screens have hugely improved and the HEOS app works alright. No problems playing flac from the raspberry pi (via minidlnad) Speaker setup is still the same two large fronts, no sub because they go low enough and two bookshelf surrounds. No idea what to do with all the leftover channels. It didn't come with Dirac that seems an expensive option.

Did read the original review from Amir but forgotten about it until after ordering

Earc works but that really old hdmi cable needed replacing. Standards have changed not all hdmi cables are the same.

Dirac Live has been offering something like a 30% discount once in a while so if you are not that interested in it you can wait for the next big sale. In my opinion/experience it s worth it. You may not prefer the resulted bass but on paper it is clear that it should improve the bass range for sure while in the above 500-1000 Hz range it would likely depend on your specific set up that is affected by a few other factors.

 

[Veganfloyd]

Thread resurrection.

I did not have the time to deal with my 3800 and set it aside until Dirac ART arrived, which is when I thought I would give it another try. This was also encouraged by having found a setting for applying -10 dB on the LFE in DTS which turned out to be unhelpful as it is either limited to vanilla DTS or has absolutely no perceptible effect on the sound ("tested" by ear with DTS-HD). ART did not help either, with or without a subwoofer.

I think I may have an idea why I seem to be the odd one out when it comes to the subjective music listening experience. Most of my collection is in surround using Dolby Amtos, DTS-HD, etc. formats. It really does sound horrible when there is any bottom-end action going on. The bass-heaviness doesn't really bother me in movies most of the time which is where most users would interact with such formats. Typical music listening would be done using 2 channel LPCM which is fine to my ears.

Could it be that Denon messed up how the LFE channel is handled in non-PCM formats? How would one go about testing this? Are there any sweep test files available, e.g. in DTS-HD and could they be somehow integrated into REW measurements?

 

[Miker 1102]

I bought the 3800 after using a 4400 and a 4500. I could not get the 3800 to sound right to me no matter what settings I applied. I was disappointed because all the changed was the reciever with the exact Audessy settings i had before. I also have a lot of 5.1 dts music I listen to. I couldn't really explain or meaure the difference between the two amps. I gave up on the 3800 because I didnt not want to invest another 900 into the Dirac suite. I dont doubt that it very well could have been a setting but I was super happy to return my 4500 to service.

 

[Veganfloyd]

I bought the 3800 after using a 4400 and a 4500. I could not get the 3800 to sound right to me no matter what settings I applied. I was disappointed because all the changed was the reciever with the exact Audessy settings i had before. I also have a lot of 5.1 dts music I listen to. I couldn't really explain or meaure the difference between the two amps. I gave up on the 3800 because I didnt not want to invest another 900 into the Dirac suite. I dont doubt that it very well could have been a setting but I was super happy to return my 4500 to service.

Back to my Denon 3600 in the main/surround rig as well. Also bought a used spare one after being shocked how bad the 3800 sounds in case the first one was to die. My only complaints about the 3600 are 12V triggers prone to failing (happened 4 times, I gave up on this functionality), no Dirac and no Auro-3D for the odd immersive album from the pre-Dolby Atmos era.

The 3800 is off to pre-amp duties in a 2.1 desktop setup in an acoustically tricky space, so Dirac comes in handy. But this is a purchase that I really wish I would not have made. My biggest and only major regret over many years of buying audio equipment.

 

[Miker 1102]

I hear you. I sold mine to an ASR member and that person got a deal for sure. ART is getting so much praise that I still kind of want to try it. Like you, however, the multi channel music is my main thing and I just dont know if the upgrade is worth the effort and cash.

 

[EWL5]

Thread resurrection.

I did not have the time to deal with my 3800 and set it aside until Dirac ART arrived, which is when I thought I would give it another try. This was also encouraged by having found a setting for applying -10 dB on the LFE in DTS which turned out to be unhelpful as it is either limited to vanilla DTS or has absolutely no perceptible effect on the sound ("tested" by ear with DTS-HD). ART did not help either, with or without a subwoofer.

I think I may have an idea why I seem to be the odd one out when it comes to the subjective music listening experience. Most of my collection is in surround using Dolby Amtos, DTS-HD, etc. formats. It really does sound horrible when there is any bottom-end action going on. The bass-heaviness doesn't really bother me in movies most of the time which is where most users would interact with such formats. Typical music listening would be done using 2 channel LPCM which is fine to my ears.

Could it be that Denon messed up how the LFE channel is handled in non-PCM formats? How would one go about testing this? Are there any sweep test files available, e.g. in DTS-HD and could they be somehow integrated into REW measurements?

There is one more option but it's a little costly: since you already have the base Dirac license for the 3800, you only need to pay for the ART upgrade (DLBC is not required since you don't have a SW). It may cost you a little more but I hear only good things for ART users. Have you considered this?

 

[peng]

There is one more option but it's a little costly: since you already have the base Dirac license for the 3800, you only need to pay for the ART upgrade (DLBC is not required since you don't have a SW). It may cost you a little more but I hear only good things for ART users. Have you considered this?

I also think ART would help a lot of people but probably not the OP is he even found Dirac Live "not listenable". It would also cost him $300 right, and that is not recoverable/returnable. It is too bad that, as we both know it is very difficult if even possible to convince someone to do a blind listening comparison test as there are time/effort requirement and the need to have a favored unit to compare. Otherwise, even a single blind test will very likely make a lot of those perceived sound quality issues disappear, just ask Dr. Olive and/or Dr. Toole and hear what they have to say. The thing is, if we compare the specs and measurements of the 3600 and 3800, there is really nothing much to indicate the two would have such obvious differences in sound quality not only in direct mode but also in standard surround sound formats, so it just seems very weird that his perceived difference has to do with the hardware.

 

[EWL5]

I also think ART would help a lot of people but probably not the OP is he even found Dirac Live "not listenable". It would also cost him $300 right, and that is not recoverable/returnable. It is too bad that, as we both know it is very difficult if even possible to convince someone to do a blind listening comparison test as there are time/effort requirement and the need to have a favored unit to compare. Otherwise, even a single blind test will very likely make a lot of those perceived sound quality issues disappear, just ask Dr. Olive and/or Dr. Toole and hear what they have to say. The thing is, if we compare the specs and measurements of the 3600 and 3800, there is really nothing much to indicate the two would have such obvious differences in sound quality not only in direct mode but also in standard surround sound formats, so it just seems very weird that his perceived difference has to do with the hardware.

My gut instinct was some sort of user or hardware error. How often have folks messed up their calibrations by using the wrong mic or calibration file?

 

[Oddball]

Well, if you don't REW, than difficult to really say what's happening. Lot's of happy 3800H users with different EQ options, so agree that something is off here.

 

[thcdru2k]

It’s probably not that the X3800H is inherently bass heavy. This sounds like LFE routing. In 2 channel PCM there’s no discrete LFE track, so the mains just play their normal content. But with Dolby or DTS bitstream formats there is a separate LFE channel. If no sub is declared, the AVR has to send that somewhere, and on modern Denon it gets folded into the mains. Now the mains are playing their own bass plus the LFE, which can sound bloated. Declaring a sub forces proper LFE routing and restores balance even if there isn’t an actual sub connected. This is also why external bass management like Flex HTx or Tide16 matters since it gives deterministic LF routing and the ability to apply HPF and LPF outside the AVR.

It’s hard to say whether your current setup is actually bloated or if your previous setup was lean. More likely the earlier system was thin and the current one is reproducing the full low frequency content, which may be exposing the limits of trying to reproduce LFE through speakers alone.

 

[krabapple]

The OP keeps saying his AVRs sounded different 'out of the box'. So forget about Audyssey, Dirac etc, stop suggesting other DSP! It's not on by default.

That leaves just : unboxing , plugging in, connecting the speakers, turning AVR on, then telling the AVR how many speakers are connected -- the OP indicates it's a surround setup so I assume theres x speakers and a least one subwoofer -- and that's it. Anything else that's user set -- like crossovers (speakers size) , distances, EQ, etc , is 'extra', which could be causing the perceived extra bassiness if its different between two AVRs. Any default settings with multiple options, if they different default settings in the two AVRs, also qualify.

The Denon 3800 simply IS NOT inherently 'bass heavy' (if the comparison is level matched), and most certainly not compared to other Denons.

This sounds like classic sighted listening phenom to me, or else just a simple setting issue, but the OP has a long way to go before he isolates the issue, if it's real. A lot more describing to do of exactly what he has and has not got active in the system.

I despair at how here on ASR still don't get the concept of reducing variables to one: the true cause.

tl;dr: he's doing something wrong, and ASR is off on tangents.

 

[Oddball]

The OP keeps saying his AVRs sounded different 'out of the box'. So forget about Audyssey, Dirac etc, stop suggesting other DSP! It's not on by default.

That leaves just : unboxing , plugging in, connecting the speakers, turning AVR on, then telling the AVR how many speakers are connected -- the OP indicates it's a surround setup so I assume theres x speakers and a least one subwoofer -- and that's it. Anything else that's user set -- like crossovers (speakers size) , distances, EQ, etc , is 'extra', which could be causing the perceived extra bassiness if its different between two AVRs. Any default settings with multiple options, if they different default settings in the two AVRs, also qualify.

The Denon 3800 simply IS NOT inherently 'bass heavy' (if the comparison is level matched), and most certainly not compared to other Denons.

This sounds like classic sighted listening phenom to me, or else just a simple setting issue, but the OP has a long way to go before he isolates the issue, if it's real. A lot more describing to do of exactly what he has and has not got active in the system.

I despair at how here on ASR still don't get the concept of reducing variables to one: the true cause.

tl;dr: he's doing something wrong, and ASR is off on tangents.

Perhaps I am a lesser man than you are but I would never ever even consider engaging in the "out-of-the-box" threads.

Many thanks for clarifying so I can hit the unfollow button. People can do out of the box thing on their or other people's time.