Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Murcielago82]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699.
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Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel:
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I had one operational problem with the unit where the Setup button would not bring up the menus anymore. A power cycle fixed it. I was happy to see solid extruded aluminum heatsink. Despite that, the top front of the of the unit (above the heatsink) got quite hot to the touch. I highly recommend ample airflow in that area. As usual, there is a fan there but it would not come on to cool the unit.

I grabbed a preliminary set of measurements from the DAC section of the 3800H and ran it by the company. Within typical margin of error, the measurements were the same as company's own.

Denon AVR-X3800H DAC Measurements
The DAC measurements and usage are made better by a global "preamplifier" mode which shuts down the amps and keeps them from overloading the unit during testing. I started my tests using Toslink optical to remove any possibility of ground loops:
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I was fair bit disappointed to see the high distortion spikes which caused the unit to underperform the AVR-X3700H by some 10 dB. This naturally knocks down the positioning of the unit by good bit in our SINAD ranking:
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The culprit seems to be the optimal output shifting fair bit lower in voltage:
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With amps shut off, the 3700H was happy to go 2.0 volts.

So fairly large degradation here. Company explanation was that this was good enough for "99%" of the external amps out there. Be that as it may, it still doesn't explain the drop in performance at the peak level (101 dB for 3700 vs 95 for 3800).

Connecting HDMI causes a rise in noise floor but SINAD didn't change since it is dominated by distortion:
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Fortunately dynamic range is unchanged from last generation:
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IMD is naturally worse due to earlier saturation:
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Linearity has suffered a bit:

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Multitone shows the degradation we would expect:
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Due to different DAC chip used (?), the filter performance is a bit worse as well:
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This naturally increases the noise+distortion in our wideband measurements:

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Quite poor result.

Jitter is bad but so was the last generation:
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Denon AVR-X3800H Amplifier Measurements:
Let's start with analog input with and without pure mode:
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This is good results.

Crosstalk is very similar to last generation and in need of some improvement:
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Dashboard performance is a bit worse than last generation but not as bad as the hit in the DAC section:
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HDMI input raises the noise floor:
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Fortunately noise performance is the same as before:
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Multitone has power supply noise in lower frequencies and rising distortion in highs:
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Rest of the measurements are essentially identical to last generation AVR:
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All in all, the amplifier is as performant as before.

Conclusions
I had high hopes going into this review thinking the company had seen the advantage its superior objective measurements in the past and would try to capitalize on them. Sadly, the reverse seems to be true with the DAC section taking a large step backward. Considering that the 3800 costs $500 more than 3700H, this is very surprising to me. Yes, inflation has a lot to do with that but surely the eye needed to be focused on making sure they at least met the same level of performance as last generation.

The good news is that the amplifier seems to be same design as last generation and has only taken a small hit.

Denon had been my "goto" recommendation for AVRs and even AVPs. When anyone asked me about either, I would just say "get a Denon AVR." While subjectively the performance of this new generation may be similar, I can't accept the regression in objective measured performance.

It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H.

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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

Is there an AVR at around the same price you would recommend?

 

[Oddball]

If you need cheaper AVR in that price range with Dirac, RZ 30 could do (as Dirac is extra on D&M). But IMO not the same value as 3800H, just could work better for a specific use case.

 

[dlaloum]

If you need cheaper AVR in that price range with Dirac, RZ 30 could do (as Dirac is extra on D&M). But IMO not the same value as 3800H, just could work better for a specific use case.

I'm very happy with my Integra DRX3.4, as the heart of a 5.1.4 setup - I use external amps for the front L/C/R and the internal amps for the rest

If you need more subs, then the RZ30.... if you need more channels but single sub is OK, RZ50/DRX5.4/LX505

For a noticeable step up, but a limit of 2 subs, RZ70/DRX8.4/LX805 - but that is a higher price bracket.

 

[noiseboy]

So, I performed a firmware update today. I was watching some TV and all seemed normal. Just played some music and the bass was super uneven, went to check the Dirac settings and it has lost them all! I opened Dirac Live on a PC and it wouldn't open a previously saved tuning - this looks like it is down to a speaker config mismatch. Tried to restore the Denon from a USB backup only to find that what I thought was my backup was in fact an empty formatted USB drive. I guess that's a schoolboy error on my part.

So I'm posting to
a. Warn people before they update firmware
b. Check your backup


Thanks!

updated for clarification

 

[Human1]

This thread is so massive I hate to ask a question that is probably answered in here but I would like some confirmation.

I just ordered one of these avrs on sale. Major reason for settling on this was all the pre-outs.

The plan is to use the preout on this with a boxem 4216 2 channel amplifier and Kef r3s. I have an R2 meta on order for a 3.1 set up. If I understand correctly getting another amp for the center channel would help. Would distortion from the 3800h really be that noticeable?

I could always get a 3e audio a7 mono for pretty cheap I guess . . . whish I had just gotten a 3 channel amp, but got the urge for a center channel suddenly.

edit forgot to mention I also have a wiim ultra, I assume the DAC on it is better also love the app so would like to continue using it. I'm guessing that isn't an issue.

 

[EWL5]

This thread is so massive I hate to ask a question that is probably answered in here but I would like some confirmation.

I just ordered one of these avrs on sale. Major reason for settling on this was all the pre-outs.

The plan is to use the preout on this with a boxem 4216 2 channel amplifier and Kef r3s. I have an R2 meta on order for a 3.1 set up. If I understand correctly getting another amp for the center channel would help. Would distortion from the 3800h really be that noticeable?

I could always get a 3e audio a7 mono for pretty cheap I guess . . . whish I had just gotten a 3 channel amp, but got the urge for a center channel suddenly.

Your solution is simple:

1) Play the 3800 on its own w/o help from external amps and see if you like it. I recommend paying for the $20 Audyssey app to get rid of MRC or running Dirac if you don't mind the additional investment. Whether you go Audyssey or Dirac, make your judgment after room correction first.

2) If you don't like the sound after step 1, go ahead and get those external amp(s)!

Note that if you're coming from a 2021 PAC AVR to this 3800, it's not a fair comparison for your KEFs. Those AVRs would have choked at the 40-60Hz due to the "limp mode" characterized by Amir!

 

[Human1]

Your solution is simple:

1) Play the 3800 on its own w/o help from external amps and see if you like it. I recommend paying for the $20 Audyssey app to get rid of MRC or running Dirac if you don't mind the additional investment. Whether you go Audyssey or Dirac, make your judgment after room correction first.

2) If you don't like the sound after step 1, go ahead and get those external amp(s)!

Note that if you're coming from a 2021 PAC AVR to this 3800, it's not a fair comparison for your KEFs. Those AVRs would have choked at the 40-60Hz due to the "limp mode" characterized by Amir!

Thanks this will be my first avr period. Yeah just giving it a go is sensible. Currently also using a wiim ultra, how would that work for integration?

 

[EWL5]

Thanks this will be my first avr period. Yeah just giving it a go is sensible. Currently also using a wiim ultra, how would that work for integration?

I'm not a fan of external DACs so hopefully someone else can answer your wiim ultra question.

 

[DutchJay]

I own a 3800h, run it in a 5.1.4 config and have a hypex Nilai500DIY stereo amp for my fronts. I bought it as I listen to a lot of 2 channel stereo music. For stereo listening I love it. It is one of the best amps out there (see tests Amir). That said it blend perfectly with the 3800 for movies. I have no urge to buy external amps for my center and surrounds, the 3800h can handle them very well and I cannot perceive any limitations during my movies watching!

 

[Human1]

I own a 3800h, run it in a 5.1.4 config and have a hypex Nilai500DIY stereo amp for my fronts. I bought it as I listen to a lot of 2 channel stereo music. For stereo listening I love it. It is one of the best amps out there (see tests Amir). That said it blend perfectly with the 3800 for movies. I have no urge to buy external amps for my center and surrounds, the 3800h can handle them very well and I cannot perceive any limitations during my movies watching!

Thank you, the boxem 4216 just got reviewed and did pretty well too! Seems like it shouldn't be an issue then!

 

[DutchJay]

Thanks this will be my first avr period. Yeah just giving it a go is sensible. Currently also using a wiim ultra, how would that work for integration?

I've put a wim ultra directly on the nilai and compared level matched with denon plus dirac DLBC pre out on the Nilai. The denon plus Dirac sounds better to me! Differences between dacs are minimal...

 

[EWL5]

W

I've put a wim ultra directly on the nilai and compared level matched with denon plus dirac DLBC pre out on the Nilai. The denon plus Dirac sounds better to me! Differences between dacs are minimal..

Which is exactly why I’m not compelled to chase SINAD on these external DACs.

 

[Steve Dallas]

This thread is so massive I hate to ask a question that is probably answered in here but I would like some confirmation.

I just ordered one of these avrs on sale. Major reason for settling on this was all the pre-outs.

The plan is to use the preout on this with a boxem 4216 2 channel amplifier and Kef r3s. I have an R2 meta on order for a 3.1 set up. If I understand correctly getting another amp for the center channel would help. Would distortion from the 3800h really be that noticeable?

I could always get a 3e audio a7 mono for pretty cheap I guess . . . whish I had just gotten a 3 channel amp, but got the urge for a center channel suddenly.

edit forgot to mention I also have a wiim ultra, I assume the DAC on it is better also love the app so would like to continue using it. I'm guessing that isn't an issue.

I run my 4800 with a Peachtree Nova 300 (ICEPower) stereo amp and run everything else off the Denon's amps. It works great and sounds great. I don't think you would really benefit from an external amp for the center. The Denon's amps are quite good.

 

[MarcT]

This thread is so massive I hate to ask a question that is probably answered in here but I would like some confirmation.

I just ordered one of these avrs on sale. Major reason for settling on this was all the pre-outs.

The plan is to use the preout on this with a boxem 4216 2 channel amplifier and Kef r3s. I have an R2 meta on order for a 3.1 set up. If I understand correctly getting another amp for the center channel would help. Would distortion from the 3800h really be that noticeable?

I could always get a 3e audio a7 mono for pretty cheap I guess . . . whish I had just gotten a 3 channel amp, but got the urge for a center channel suddenly.

edit forgot to mention I also have a wiim ultra, I assume the DAC on it is better also love the app so would like to continue using it. I'm guessing that isn't an issue.

I run an Outlaw Audio 2220 mono power amp on my center channel with my Denon 4700. Maybe I don't really need it but they don't cost much anyway.

 

[squared80]

W

Which is exactly why I’m not compelled to chase SINAD on these external DACs.

Good. SINAD above mid-70's is basically inaudible to the human ear, and you'll hear zero difference between DACS.

 

[Ciobi69]

I've put a wim ultra directly on the nilai and compared level matched with denon plus dirac DLBC pre out on the Nilai. The denon plus Dirac sounds better to me! Differences between dacs are minimal...

I agree but you shouldn’t use Dirac on it but compare them without eq, anyway I did the test and I got a bad 758 that should be horrible , and I don’t know if I was biased but I did found almost no difference, I should do more tests

 

[seashell]

I currently have an Integra DRX 3.4 and it is annoyingly slow (a few seconds) to sync to any bitstream audio (Dolby/DTS) after an interruption such as pausing and restarting or seeking in a video. The video plays but the audio is silent for those few seconds. I find this quite annoying.

My previous AVR was a Denon 3808 which didn't have this problem, but obviously that was an older HDMI spec and no HD bitsream decoding.

Does the 3800H sync quickly to bitstream audio like the older Denons or does it take a few seconds like the Integra?

 

[antcollinet]

I currently have an Integra DRX 3.4 and it is annoyingly slow (a few seconds) to sync to any bitstream audio (Dolby/DTS) after an interruption such as pausing and restarting or seeking in a video. The video plays but the audio is silent for those few seconds. I find this quite annoying.

My previous AVR was a Denon 3808 which didn't have this problem, but obviously that was an older HDMI spec and no HD bitsream decoding.

Does the 3800H sync quickly to bitstream audio like the older Denons or does it take a few seconds like the Integra?

Just tried playing a bit of "Wednesday" on Netflix - I could pause / play / pause / play. The sound stopped and started at the same time as the video.

Tried the same with my Kodi (raspberry pi) streamer - there was about half a second delay between the video start and the sound start.

Similar half second delay for BBC Iplayer.


The latter two delays could be due to the particular apps though.

 

[seashell]

Just tried playing a bit of "Wednesday" on Netflix - I could pause / play / pause / play. The sound stopped and started at the same time as the video.

Tried the same with my Kodi (raspberry pi) streamer - there was about half a second delay between the video start and the sound start.

Similar half second delay for BBC Iplayer.


The latter two delays could be due to the particular apps though.

Thank you. A few apps insert silence into the bitstream during pause or skip to prevent decoder recovery, not sure if netflix is one of them. Sounds like the Denon might be faster than the Integra at recovery in general though.

 

[Genstruktur]

You will get much higher than 1.25 V, even 4 V, pre amp mode makes no difference but it will keep distortions at lower level at above 1.4 to 2 V. If the review says 0.8 V, it simply mean it was 0.8 V when distortions was at or near the lowest point. There are other amps you can consider too, such as Monolith's, buckeye amps, VTV amps, Nord amps. Those class D amps are smaller, lighter, run cooler and may offer more outputs than the Bass X A3 that are good to take the load off the AVR but they don't offer more output than the AVR's own amps.

Pre amp mode, is this with the amplifiers for specific channels turned off or du you need to shut off all channels (global)?

I measured this on one of my front speakers pre out with amplifiers shut off for the fronts. I'm no expert and its a cheap multimeter i used.

50 Hz signal 0dBFS used.

-3dB receiver = 01.4V
0dB receiver = 02.1
+5dB receiver= 03.6
+6dB receievr= 03.5
+7db receiver= 03.4
+8dB receiver=03.2
+10dB recievrer = 02.8
+18 dB receiver(max) = 01.3V