Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Oddball]

Not arbitrary, it’s intentionally and what I (and some others) feel is for a valid reason.

Obviously if you feel this is incorrect, you should set up your system as you feel best and share those experiences with the community. This obviously does not work as universally applicable, nor is advertised that way.

 

[Chromatischism]

I didn't need to at 60 Hz, but I do feel the need if my crossover is any higher than 80 Hz.

 

[peng]

I didn't need to at 60 Hz, but I do feel the need if my crossover is any higher than 80 Hz.

They are not talking about crossover though. It is LPF they are discussing.

 

[peng]

For movies. I don't pretend to know why but it might be to do with room modes? At 80Hz the room feels pressurized which is great but that happens mostly behind my seating position and the result is a bass resonance throughout the room. This is what was happening before, even at 120Hz before I sorted my XT32 config (in the last few days) and rest was dealt with by Antimode. So maybe I could set LPF to 80hz and Antimode again. But I am very happy with the level of bass I am able to achieve because of how "relatively" focussed the bass is right now. I'm living in an apartment so the last thing I need is more bass resonating through the walls.

That could be it.

 

[peng]

There were tons of threads on AVS forum about this, some from prominent members like mthomas47. Worth taking a lokie. Might not do magic in every system, but in my system cutting off subs steep after 100hz sounds about right. If any of the LFE content gets reduced in intensity due to that, I guess it will just be a sacrifice for the greater good.

I must be lucky, never have to give up any bass intended by the recording/mastering lol.., yet.

 

[Oddball]

It goes both ways though as most things, and it looks like it is misunderstood even my some of the greater minds in audio.

LPF is only a part of the equation, and honestly don’t see any drama by stating to roll it off 1/5 octave below it was “intended”. And truth to be told, there is no objective data as to what is, on average, being left out, and to what extent @100hz LFP scenario. I might be mistaken and of course if corrected will gladly accept the pun.

The other part is your overall sub settings either by its own low pass/DSP or by EQ in your AVR. The sub will be picking up the rest of the low end from the channels and depending on your setup, you will need or not need to manage that part as well.

On balance, I find that rolling off my subs very very steep after 100hz is the best I can do in my system. In that respect, I do it with Audy, that will admittedly roll off LFE as well. Find this solution better as engaging sub DSPs presents additional issues with time aligning the subs with the rest of the system. So on balance, this seems like a reasonable compromise all-in.

Worlds will obviously not fall to their end over this discussion, so don’t think that there is a right answer to this one. It will be the right answer that you find in your system, taking all considerations into account and doing the best with what you have.

 

[peng]

It goes both ways though as most things, and it looks like it is misunderstood even my some of the greater minds in audio.

LPF is only a part of the equation, and honestly don’t see any drama by stating to roll it off 1/5 octave below it was “intended”. And truth to be told, there is no objective data as to what is, on average, being left out, and to what extent @100hz LFP scenario. I might be mistaken and of course if corrected will gladly accept the pun.

The other part is your overall sub settings either by its own low pass/DSP or by EQ in your AVR. The sub will be picking up the rest of the low end from the channels and depending on your setup, you will need or not need to manage that part as well.

On balance, I find that rolling off my subs very very steep after 100hz is the best I can do in my system. In that respect, I do it with Audy, that will admittedly roll off LFE as well. Find this solution better as engaging sub DSPs presents additional issues with time aligning the subs with the rest of the system. So on balance, this seems like a reasonable compromise all-in.

Worlds will obviously not fall to their end over this discussion, so don’t think that there is a right answer to this one. It will be the right answer that you find in your system, taking all considerations into account and doing the best with what you have.

I follow RC software instructions, so I usually don't use my sub's dsp and bass management functions at all. That means I rely on Audyssey, DL, AARC G to do their thing.

My bottom line is, I don't use RC, with or without post calibration tweaks, based on what I heard/thought I heard, and I trust my REW graphs almost totally. Unless it sounds subjectively bad, REW/Umik-1 mic has the final say.

My REW graphs shows there is no need to roll off the LFE channel at > 120 Hz, but I do understand if someone's room/subs ended up with untamable bass, using the LPF setting at lower frequency than 120 Hz could be a quick fix to some extent if the offending bass is in the range above 60, 70, 80Hz or higher. Even if I had the issue, I would not give up too early and resort to using/getting by with a low LPF setting. That's just me, the ocd thing I guess.. This is especially the case with the Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVP, there are many things one can try.

 

[Thumbpicker]

The 3800 is fine. I have one.

If. you have any issues getting it set up once it arrives, give me a shout back and I'll help out.

Thank you!

 

[Chromatischism]

I follow RC software instructions, so I usually don't use my sub's dsp and bass management functions at all. That means I rely on Audyssey, DL, AARC G to do their thing.

My bottom line is, I don't use RC, with or without post calibration tweaks, based on what I heard/thought I heard, and I trust my REW graphs almost totally. Unless it sounds subjectively bad, REW/Umik-1 mic has the final say.

My REW graphs shows there is no need to roll off the LFE channel at > 120 Hz, but I do understand if someone's room/subs ended up with untamable bass, using the LPF setting at lower frequency than 120 Hz could be a quick fix to some extent if the offending bass is in the range above 60, 70, 80Hz or higher. Even if I had the issue, I would not give up too early and resort to using/getting by with a low LPF setting. That's just me, the ocd thing I guess.. This is especially the case with the Denon/Marantz AVRs/AVP, there are many things one can try.

I can't easily show it via measurements, but the bleed/bloat with higher crossover points is there.

And it's supported by people you may have heard of

From Loudspeakers and Rooms for Sound Reproduction—A Scientific Review, p. 470:

As with any subwoofer system, the low-pass filtering must be such that the sound output is attenuated rapidly above the crossover frequency (80 Hz). Excessive output, distortion products, or noises at higher frequencies increase the risk that listeners will localize the subwoofers. A second issue relates to the fact that in order for these systems to function fully, the bass must be monophonic below the crossover frequency. Most of the bass in common program material is highly correlated or monophonic to begin with and bass-management systems are commonplace, but some have argued that it is necessary to preserve at least two-channel playback down to some very low frequency. Experimental evidence thus far has not been encouraging to supporters of this notion (see [72] and references therein). Audible differences appear to be near or below the threshold of detection, even when experienced listeners are exposed to isolated low-frequency sounds. Another recent investigation concludes that the audible effects benefiting from channel separation relate to frequencies above about 80 Hz [73]. (In their conclusion, the authors identify a “cutoff-frequency boundary between 50 Hz and 63 Hz,” these being the center frequencies of the octave bands of noise used as signals. However, when the upper frequency limits of the bands are taken into account, the numbers change to about 71 and 89 Hz, the average of which is 80 Hz.)

 

[peng]

I can't easily show it via measurements, but the bleed/bloat with higher crossover points is there.

And it's supported by people you may have heard of

From Loudspeakers and Rooms for Sound Reproduction—A Scientific Review, p. 470:

Of course, no argument from me!! You might have been another one who thought we were discussing crossover settings, but we, Cdx47 and @Oddball have been talking about LPF, previously called by D+M LPF of LFE, that is a different animal, aka low pass filter that only affects the LFE channel, not the same as crossover.

 

[cdx47]

That could be it.

Just an FYI. I re ran the Anti mode and it has done enough for me to be able to use any LPF for my sub but I will stick to 120hz. But with the room somewhat tamed I can play up to reference levels now with furniture and ornaments NOT shaking anymore Still way too loud for an apartment though

 

[Tommy191]

*sigh* I just ordered one today.

I have one and my ears like the sound of it. Then again, I'm a novice

 

[DutchJay]

Hé all

I am on holiday so can't check it, but does the latest Firmware update that enables tidal connect for heos also work for the avr 3800h? Denon does not list the included device other than a vague story on hs1 and hs2 based heos devices.

I use tidal and hate the heos app so please say yes....

 

[Thumbpicker]

I have set-up the X3800H as a 7.1 bi-amped system. Mostly I am quite happy with it.

Two small issues:

• The Passthrough audio setting with my Bravia 7 Mini LED - the audio seems to stutter very briefly (short duration split second pauses and somewhat intermittent) on one of my TV Channels that runs DD + DSurr TV. Doesn't seem to do it on the Sony's Auto (compressed) output or PCM (stereo) setting. Can't quite work out if it's the TV, the aerial/reception, the receiver or the HDMI cable - but it is a compliant and new cable (1.8 metres and High Speed with Ethernet) - should be fine for a 4K TV. Wasn't real cheap.
• One particular movie which I tested the unit on from Netflix called "Predator" with Dwayne Johnson was real quiet. I had to boost the volume to greater than 0db levels to hear the dialogue and even then the unit was very underwhelming... Normally the Denon has adequate volume at around 45% to 60% volume for most TV and streaming shows so not sure why this particular movie had me pushing the volume up to a whopping 90% which is ridiculous. It still had quiet dialogue. Ordinary TV and Amazon Prime seem to be fine... Also some Netflix shows seem to be fine in terms of volume. That movie was crazy quiet though.

Other than those issues I'm pleased with it.

 

[Thumbpicker]

I have set-up the X3800H as a 7.1 bi-amped system. Mostly I am quite happy with it.

Two small issues:

• The Passthrough audio setting with my Bravia 7 Mini LED - the audio seems to stutter very briefly (short duration split second pauses and somewhat intermittent) on one of my TV Channels that runs DD + DSurr TV. Doesn't seem to do it on the Sony's Auto (compressed) output or PCM (stereo) setting. Can't quite work out if it's the TV, the aerial/reception, the receiver or the HDMI cable - but it is a compliant and new cable (1.8 metres and High Speed with Ethernet) - should be fine for a 4K TV. Wasn't real cheap.
• One particular movie which I tested the unit on from Netflix called "Predator" with Dwayne Johnson was real quiet. I had to boost the volume to greater than 0db levels to hear the dialogue and even then the unit was very underwhelming... Normally the Denon has adequate volume at around 45% to 60% volume for most TV and streaming shows so not sure why this particular movie had me pushing the volume up to a whopping 90% which is ridiculous. It still had quiet dialogue. Ordinary TV and Amazon Prime seem to be fine... Also some Netflix shows seem to be fine in terms of volume. That movie was crazy quiet though.

Other than those issues I'm pleased with it.

Just regarding this post I made - I have narrowed down the stuttering to aerial reception issues with that particular TV Channel because it works fine streaming that channel via the internet with the same audio encoding showing up on the Denon i.e. DD+ Dsurr TV.

That just leaves the second issue which has only really been a problem with Netflix and that one show so far.

 

[antcollinet]

Just regarding this post I made - I have narrowed down the stuttering to aerial reception issues with that particular TV Channel because it works fine streaming that channel via the internet with the same audio encoding showing up on the Denon i.e. DD+ Dsurr TV.

That just leaves the second issue which has only really been a problem with Netflix and that one show so far.

If it is a problem with only one show, then it has nothing to do with the AVR.

 

[Thumbpicker]

If it is a problem with only one show, then it has nothing to do with the AVR.

Well it could be if that particular show is encoded in some unusual way that the AVR doesn't like but yes in most scenarios it's working fine.

 

[antcollinet]

Well it could be if that particular show is encoded in some unusual way that the AVR doesn't like but yes in most scenarios it's working fine.

Can you think of any form of encoding that the AVR might not like which would cause levels to be erroneously low but not stop the AVR playing sound at all?

Applying Occam's razor would suggest going with the simplest explanation, being that the stream sent to the AVR is just encoded with low levels on that particular Netflix movie.

 

[Wolf11Man]

I have regular "too low volume" problems with external devices like the SAT-tuner. For some reason they sometimes don't leave the volume to the receiver as they should, but squeeze their volume adjustment in between. When you finally have corrected anything to work fine, a few weeks later the same problem arises, as these gadgets run some updates and reset them selves. My Denon is the last to blame for that. Onkyo is just the same.

 

[antcollinet]

I would have thought that potential software glitches involving the handshake between some encoded file, the software and hardware of my Sony TV and the software and hardware of my AVR would be quite common occurrence. In fact, bugs in that area have been common and notorious over the years. Personally, I prefer to not sound like a wanker on an AV forum by invoking physics analogies and Occam's razor or Schrodinger's f'n cat thinking people will be awed and think I'm f'n Einstein but you do what you like. Did you win the f'n internet? Did you win an argument. No you didn't.

Wow! Way to reach my ignore list. And after only 12 posts too. I'm not sure anyone has ever managed that before.