Denon AVR-A1H High-end AVR Review

[EWL5]

I believe that PowerDVD can play BluRay Atmos discs, but it doesn't perform the decoding and object rendering that an Atmos receiver can do.
Instead, the Dolby True HD channels are passed through as bitstream over HDMI to a receiver or processor, and the Atmos processing is done there.
What we're trying to achieve here is for the PC or Mac to perform the Atmos processing so the PC can generate 16 channels of LPCM digital audio.
With the right HW & SW, these can be output using USB, AES/EBU, MADI, HDX, AVB, Dante, Ravenna or Thunderbolt, but not HDMI which only carries 8 channels of LPCM.

So instead of separates in a home theater you'd rather have separates from the PC?!!!

At least for myself, life is too short to create equipment combos when something exists that just works (like the A1H)!

 

[peng]

View attachment 427474
Could the above Amir statement be cause for the (very) low outcome?

Wow, that's quick, somehow I missed his remarks, thank you so much!

Yes it would make sense if it is a noise issue. If we consider the fact that SINAD include both distortions and noise, so if SINAD of the X4800H and Cinema 40 are practically the same, it is theoretical not possible for the SNR/DR to be 12 dB lower than the Cinema 40. So, I am going to assume Amir has already solved the puzzle, may be @welwynnick would update his very informative/useful chart with a cautionary note like Amir did.

 

[peng]

Again, thanks to @Brambo67 , I now feel comfortable opting for the AVR-X4800H (don't need it but good to have a backup unit) if it ever goes on big sale.

 

[peng]

So instead of separates in a home theater you'd rather have separates from the PC?!!!

At least for myself, life is too short to create equipment combos when something exists that just works (like the A1H)!

Keep in mind in case you don't know that (if I remember right), he's one of those who could, or at least think/believe he could hear difference between gear that may measure well enough for you and I to consider "transparent". Also keep in mind there are always people who believe either measurements don't tell everything audible, and/or there are things that makes audible differences yet not ever measured. I don't buy those kind of arguments because they are not logical, but many do and it may not be possible to change their mind, like they can't convince it...lol...

 

[welwynnick]

The A1H is very tempting for the reasons EWL gave, it's one box that indeed "just works" and is probably better than any other single box.

My ambitions are a bit higher because I'm not aware of any AV equipment that sounds as good as stereo equipment, and I don't think it has to be that way.

However, I most definitely do not think that we can hear anything that we can't measure. The difficult bit is to establish quite where the level of transparency sits. On my home turf I'm the irritating objectivist who's always prattling about how measurements are where the truth is. I try to straddle both the objectivist and subjectivist camps because I think that's the right thing to do, but it does mean I make enemies on both sides :-(

Where I'm at now is moving away from relying on SINAD @ 1V/1W/1%/1dB/1kΩ/1kHz/whatever , which is best case performance, and looking at worst case performance across the whole audio frequency/power/load envelope. Those tests are often missed, which is why I was so pleased that Amir posted a comprehensive set for the A1H that included THDN vs frequency vs power.

My other ambition is to keep digital audio and video separate, hence my interest in Dante. As it happens, right this minute I'm being tempted by a great offer on a JBL SDP-55 so I can have a Dante processor, notwithstanding all it's other shortcomings.

There's much more discussion in these threads:

Pure digital AV processor?

Given that most AV processor measurement are not so great here, is there any AV processor which has digital output (USB or AES) so we can have external DAC to do the hard job ? Ideally the AV processor just need to: Decode the surround format (Atmos, DTS, Auro3D etc...) Room Correction DSP...

www.audiosciencereview.com

https://www.avforums.com/threads/av-processors-with-a-digital-output.2326976/

 

[peng]

Where I'm at now is moving away from relying on SINAD @ 1V/1W/1%/1dB/1kΩ/1kHz/whatever , which is best case performance, and looking at worst case performance across the whole audio frequency/power/load envelope. Those tests are often missed, which is why I was so pleased that Amir posted a comprehensive set for the A1H that included THDN vs frequency vs power.

I have always look for the worst since day one, but the most important factor is, as you mentioned, where the transition point is. It is likely a range, in order to cover the different point for different people. For distortions, it may be -40 dB to -90 dB? I, like many other ASR members have taken those Klippel tests, and I did much better than the average scores even though I have hear loss in the around 4 kHz like most older people so. Better than Amir's iirc, he's honest enough to tell his score lol..

Do you have links to studies with test results on the "audibility" topics that you think are reliable and highly credible?

Back to the A1H, of all the measurements Amir has taken, I couldn't find a single one that indicated this thing should not be considered transparent. It also measured better than many so called separates, yes stereo separates included.

 

[peng]

My ambitions are a bit higher because I'm not aware of any AV equipment that sounds as good as stereo equipment, and I don't think it has to be that way.

That's a generalized/blanket statement, it almost sounds like you are saying the likes of the A1H, AV10, C30, AVM90 could not sound as good as any stereo equipment, I doubt you mean that. Do yo mind clarifying a bit, be a little more specific? I am just being curious again.

 

[welwynnick]

Do you have links to studies with test results on the "audibility" topics that you think are reliable and highly credible?

I found this when I started looking at audio interfaces. In blind tests, the panel preferred the units measuring 117 and 110dB SINAD over those measuring 105 and 102dB.
I subsequently bought an AVID HD IO multi channel DAC.

https://www.avforums.com/threads/av-processors-with-a-digital-output.2326976/post-32387893

In particular, see the point about finding the test result with the best positive result, instead of finding the worst negative result, which is just a race to the bottom. Dolby did this when they tried to prove Dolby Digital was transparent.

 

[EWL5]

Back to the A1H, of all the measurements Amir has taken, I couldn't find a single one that indicated this thing should not be considered transparent. It also measured better than many so called separates, yes stereo separates included.

This is one of the main reasons I haven't jumped onto separates. If there isn't a slam dunk difference from AVRs, WTH am I paying so much more money for them?!!! Just to tell people I own "separates" as a badge of honor?

I don't have a ton of audiophile friends so who am I showing off to when I budget $10-$15k for audio? I think I'm at the age where I rather splurge on speakers that could pass for art (can probably be appreciated by more)!

 

[pogo]

is probably better than any other single box.

Better than a Storm Audio ISR Fusion 20

 

[EWL5]

https://www.avforums.com/threads/av-processors-with-a-digital-output.2326976/post-32387893

In particular, see the point about finding the test result with the best positive result, instead of finding the worst negative result, which is just a race to the bottom. Dolby did this when they tried to prove Dolby Digital was transparent.

Race to the bottom is unfortunately the here and now (which is how MP3s killed SACD/DVD-A)!

 

[welwynnick]

That's a generalized/blanket statement, it almost sounds like you are saying the likes of the A1H, AV10, C30, AVM90 could not sound as good as any stereo equipment, I doubt you mean that. Do yo mind clarifying a bit, be a little more specific? I am just being curious again.

No, I didn't mean all stereo gear is better than all AV gear, I meant comparable AV & stereo equipment. I'm sure that won't answer the question, but I'm a bit tied up.

 

[welwynnick]

Better than a Storm Audio ISR Fusion 20

Yes!
Definitely better than a Storm Fusion 20! That uses ICEPower modules.

Make	Model	Chan	Module	Model	Power 8Ω	Power 4Ω	DNR dB	SINAD Best	SINAD 45k	SINAD Worst	Diff dB	Price £	Price/ Chan
Topping	B100	1	Class B	-	70	100	139	121	113	108	5	300	300
Apollon	Multichannel	8	Purifi	1ET6525	230	450	137	116	111	100	11	4,400	550
Apollon	Multichannel	8	Hypex NCx	NCx500	380	700	133	112	108	95	13	4,300	538
Lyngdorf	MXA-8400	8	Purifi	1ET400	200	400	123	114	106	93	13	8,000	1,000
Trinnov	Amplitude 8	8	Hypex	NC1200	225	375	125	103	103	92	11	12,750	1,594
NAD	M28	7	Purifi	1ET400	200	400	120	103	98	89	9	4,500	643
Primare	A35.8	8	Hypex	NC500	200	300	122	101	99	86	13	4,500	563
ATI	AT528	8	Hypex	NC500	200	300	122	100	99	86	13	5,130	641
Trinnov	Amplitude 8m	8	Hypex	NC500	213	426	129	106	99	86	13	7,000	875
NAD	M27	7	Hypex	NC400	228	419	124	101	98	85	13	4,000	571
JBL	SDR-35	7	Class G	-	150	220	99	99	94	84	10	6,000	857
Denon	A1H	15	Class AB	-	157	270	108	94	98	72	26	5,000	333
Marantz	Cinema 40	9	Class AB	-	140	212	109	87	87	71	16	2,000	222
Denon	X4800H	9	Class AB	-	140	210	97	88	88	70	18	1,700	189
Trinnov	Amplitude 16	16	ICE Edge	400A2	200	400	122	98	87	69	18	10,275	642
Marantz	AMP10	16	ICE Edge	400A2	200	400	119	99	88	69	19	6,000	375
Storm	Fusion 20	16	ICE Edge	300A2	150	300	122	99	88	69	19	20,000	1,250
Denon	X8500H	13	Class AB	-	150	257	110	85	82	66	16	3,800	292
Focal	Astral 16	12	Pascal	T-PRO	200	300	118	86	86	64	22	18,000	1,500
Storm	PA 16	16	Pascal	T-PRO	200	225	118	86	86	64	22	10,800	675
Parasound	2125	2	Class AB	-	175	215	99	82	82	62	20	1,850	925
B&O	ICE	2	ICE Power	125ASX2	70	120	110	85	78	57	21	330	165
Rotel	RMB-1570	5	ICE Power	200AC	120	173	106	83	76	52	24	1,500	300
AVERAGE		8			183	312	118	98	94	78	16	6,180	652

 

[pogo]

Definitely better than a Storm Fusion 20! That uses ICEPower modules.

OK, now you've picked out a few numbers. What does this mean for real multi-channel operation with complex loads?
The B100 is on top, for example, and how it performs with complex loads is now well known.

 

[welwynnick]

Wow, that's quick, somehow I missed his remarks, thank you so much!
Yes it would make sense if it is a noise issue. If we consider the fact that SINAD include both distortions and noise, so if SINAD of the X4800H and Cinema 40 are practically the same, it is theoretical not possible for the SNR/DR to be 12 dB lower than the Cinema 40. So, I am going to assume Amir has already solved the puzzle, may be @welwynnick would update his very informative/useful chart with a cautionary note like Amir did.

At 8Ω, max power = 134W.
Max output voltage = √(PxR) = √(134x8) = 32.7V
At 20mW, THDN = -72dB (assumed noise)
Voltage = √(0.020x8) = 0.4V
Noise = 0.4V/10^(72/20) = 100.5µV
DNR = 20log(32.7V/100.5µV) = 110dB

The new DNR is similar to other Denon AVRs , though I think 4Ω would be a bit worse than this.
I've updated my chart (though you're probably the only other person who has read it!)
I hope you realise by now that the only reason I could possibly have for putting this workbook together is because I do believe that measurements tell us the truth.

 

[peng]

At 8Ω, max power = 134W.
Max output voltage = √(PxR) = √(134x8) = 32.7V
At 20mW, THDN = -72dB (assumed noise)
Voltage = √(0.020x8) = 0.4V
Noise = 0.4V/10^(72/20) = 100.5µV
DNR = 20log(32.7V/100.5µV) = 110dB

The new DNR is similar to other Denon AVRs , though I think 4Ω would be a bit worse than this.
I've updated my chart (though you're probably the only other person who has read it!)
I hope you realise by now that the only reason I could possibly have for putting this workbook together is because I do believe that measurements tell us the truth.

Excellent, thanks!

 

[peng]

No, I didn't mean all stereo gear is better than all AV gear, I meant comparable AV & stereo equipment. I'm sure that won't answer the question, but I'm a bit tied up.

Clear enough, thanks for the quick reply.

 

[LightninBoy]

You couldn't pay me to put this monstrosity in my house.

 

[famasfilms]

Thanks to The Computer Audiophile, These are the only ways I know of to play Atmos movies on a computer:

There are two interesting articles here, too:

Digital Signal Processing - The Ultimate Guide To High End Immersive Audio

Audio: Listen to this article. Welcome to the Digital Signal Processing chapter of the Ultimate Guide To High End Immersive Audio. The main table of contents can be viewed here. Digital signal processing or DSP is a proverbial four letter word in many audiophile circles. DSP means many things to ...

audiophilestyle.com

The Digital Side Of My Immersive Atmos Music System

The digital front end of my Atmos music system can be a little confusing for many audiophiles. I completely understand the confusion. This system is a bit different from the norm, but I believe it produces results that are a bit different from the norm as well. As one can see in my recent objecti...

audiophilestyle.com

Eh? I used a htpc with media player classic, madvr and lav audio/video filters for many years with playback of trueHD Atmos and HDR pass through.

It was only getting a Dolby vision TV that made me get an Nvidia shield instead because a pc can't pass through DV.

It's nowhere near as complicated as that guide makes it sound

 

[welwynnick]

Eh? I used a htpc with media player classic, madvr and lav audio/video filters for many years with playback of trueHD Atmos and HDR pass through.
It was only getting a Dolby vision TV that made me get an Nvidia shield instead because a pc can't pass through DV.
It's nowhere near as complicated as that guide makes it sound

I should probably have been a bit more specific. I'm talking about the decoding and object rendering of Atmos soundtracks by a PC or similar.
Nvidia Shield appears to pass through Atmos as well, needing a receiver to do the object rendering.

SHIELD TV is 4K HDR Ready

The All New NVIDIA SHIELD TV for the best in streaming media

www.nvidia.com

Audio​

Dolby Audio (Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby Atmos)

DTS-X surround sound (pass-through) over HDMI
High-resolution audio playback up to 24-bit/192 kHz over HDMI
Audio support: AAC, AAC+, eAAC+, MP3, WAVE, AMR, OGG Vorbis, FLAC, PCM, WMA, WMA-Pro, WMA-Lossless, Digital Plus, Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD (pass-through), DTS-X (pass-through), and DTS-HD (pass-through)