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Dan D’Agostino on measurements

b1daly

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Thank you.

Now, the first thing you mention "The thing that would be most audible in power amps would be differences in frequency response and Mr D'Agostino has his spec'd at +-.1 db 20-20khz, and =-1db 1-100hz."

And about the first thing I said was that specs into a resistor are just that.

Think about just that one spec. If the output resistance of my amp is one ohm, and D'Agostino is say 0.001 ohms, can both amps still measure the same frequency response into a resistor? Of course they can.

Now hook these two amps up to a real world speaker load, and it has easily been proven that they will sound differently for those who have discerning hearing. So that is one point where I know (as opposed to your words "propose") that there will be an audible difference in sound reproduction based on the same measurement.

The point I was making is we have to be careful about broad sweeping statements, it's not that we cant measure all aspects of the changes in voltage and current and frequency and amplitude and phase, its just that the industry never has decided to publish an entire suite of measurements, just a few things and so without information then one can fill it in based on their own feelings or scientific level, etc. That's all I was saying, lets be careful about blanket pronouncements is all.

And yes, that first watt is mighty important, and here is one are where about the oldest form of amplifier, the SET amp, excels, as it is class A all the way. Now, I am not saying its the best spec'd amp out there, but it is pretty fine below a watt spec wise.

By the way Benchmark has excellent tech notes and brilliant audio engineers, I really like that outfit!

It has not been proven that amps sound different based on what speakers you use, within the realm of standard dynamic speakers. On the contrary it has been proven that they do not sound different under a set of reasonable constraints (that correspond well to real world listening experiences).

Here is a write-up of the most famous of these tests that have been done, but they have been conducted many times by other parties.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge FAQ

by Tom Morrow

Written 6/2006

The Richard Clark Amp Challenge is a listening test intended to show that as long as a modern audio amplifier is operated within its linear range (below clipping), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear. Because thousands of people have taken the test, the test is significant to the audiophile debate over audibility of amplifier differences. This document was written to summarize what the test is, and answer common questions about the test. Richard Clark was not involved in writing this document.

The challenge

Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched.

His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure “good enough” and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules.

This article will attempt to summarize the important rules and ramifications of the test, but for clarity and brevity some uncontroversial, obvious, or inconsequential rules are left out of this article. The full rules, from which much of this article was derived, are available here and a collection of Richard's comments are available here.

Testing procedure

The testing uses an ABX test device where the listener can switch between hearing amplifier A, amplifier B, and a randomly generated amplifier X which is either A or B. The listener's job is to decide whether source X sounds like A or B. The listener inputs their guess into a computerized scoring system, and they go on to the next identification. The listener can control the volume, within the linear (non-clipped) range of the amps. The listener has full control over the CD player as well. The listener can take as long as they want to switch back and forth between A, B, and X at will.

Passing the test requires two sets of 12 correct identifications, for a total of 24 correct identifications. To speed things up, a preliminary round of 8 identifications, sometimes done without levels or other parameters perfectly matched, is a prerequisite.

Richard Clark normally has CD source, amplifiers, high quality home audio speakers, and listening environment set up in advance. But if the listener requests, they can substitute whatever source, source material, amplifiers, speakers (even headphones), and listening environment they prefer, within stipulated practical limits. The source material must be commercially available music, not test signals. Richard Clark stipulates that the amplifiers must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers, and they must not fail (e.g. thermal shutdown) during the test.

Amplifier requirements

The amplifiers in the test must be operated within their linear power capacity. Power capacity is defined as clipping or 2% THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less. This means that if one amplifier has more power (Watts) than the other, the amplifiers will be judged within the power range of the least powerful amplifier .

The levels of both left and right channels will be adjusted to match to within .05 dB. Polarity of connections must be maintained so that the signal is not inverted. Left and Right cannot be reversed. Neither amplifier can exhibit excessive noise. Channel separation of the amps must be at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

All signal processing circuitry (e.g. bass boost, filters) must be turned off, and if the amplifier still exhibits nonlinear frequency response, an equalizer will be set by Richard Clark and inserted inline with one of the amps so that they both exhibit identical frequency response. The listener can choose which amplifier gets the equalizer .

FAQs:

How many people have taken the challenge?

Richard Clark says over a couple thousand people have taken the test, and nobody has passed. He used to do the test for large groups of people at various audio seminars, and didn't charge individuals to do the test, which accounted for the vast majority of the people who did the test. Around 1996 was the last of the big tests, and since then he has done the test for small numbers of people on request, for a charge ($200 for unaffiliated individuals, $500 for people representing companies).

When did the challenge start?

Sometime around the year 1990. Richard Clark says in a post on 7/2004 that the test with the $10,000 prize started about 15 years ago.

What were the results of the test?

Nobody has ever successfully passed the test. Richard Clark says that generally the number of correct responses was about the same as the number of incorrect responses, which would be consistent with random guessing. He says in large groups he never observed variation more than 51/49%, but for smaller groups it might vary as much as 60/40%. He doesn't keep detailed logs of the responses because he said they always show random responses.

Is two sets of 12 correct responses a stringent requirement?

Yes. Richard Clark intentionally made the requirements strict because with thousands of people taking the test, even random guessing would eventually cause someone to pass the test if the bar was set low. Since he is offering his own $10,000 to anyone who will pass the test, he wants to protect against the possibility of losing it to random guessing.

However, if the listener is willing to put up their own money for the test as a bet, he will lower the requirements from 12 correct down to as low as 6 correct.

Richard Clark has said “22 out of 24 would be statistically significant. In fact it would prove that the results were audible. Any AVERAGE score more than 65% would do so. But no one has even done that”.”

Do most commercially available amplifiers qualify for this test, even tube amplifiers and class D amplifiers?

Yes. Nearly all currently available amplifiers have specs better than what are required for the test. Tube amplifiers generally qualify, as do full range class D amplifiers. It is not clear whether Richard Clark would allow sub amplifiers with a limited frequency response.

Besides taking Richard Clark's word, how can the results of the test be verified?

Many car audio professionals have taken the test and/or witnessed the test being taken in audio seminars, so there isn't much doubt that the test actually existed and was taken by many people. One respected professional who has taken and witnessed the test is Mark Eldridge. Because the test has been discussed widely on audio internet forums, if there were people who passed the test it seems likely that we would have heard about it. Sometimes there are reports of people who believe they passed the test, but upon further examination it turns out that they only passed the preliminary round of 8 tests, where levels were not matched as closely as for the final test.

How can audio consumers use the results of this test?

When purchasing an amplifier, they can ignore the subjective sound quality claims of marketers. Many amplifier marketers will claim or imply that their amplifiers have some special topology, materials, or magic that makes the sound clearly superior to other amps at all volume levels. Many consumers pay several times more than they otherwise would for that intangible sound quality they think they are getting. This test indicates that the main determinant of sound quality is the amount of power the amplifier can deliver. When played at 150W, an expensive 100W measured amplifier will clip and sound worse than a cheap 200W measured amp.

Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?

No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world. The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp.

Most people perceive slight differences in amplitude as quality differences rather than loudness. The louder component sounds “faster, more detailed, more full”, not just louder. This perceptual phenomenon is responsible for many people thinking they liked the sound of a component when really they just liked the way it was set up.

I changed amps in my system to another one with the same measured power and I hear a sound quality difference. Does this show that the test results are invalid?

No. Installing a new amplifier involves setting the gains and crossovers, and any slight change you make to those settings is going to affect how things sound.

Is adding an equalizer just a way of “dumbing down” the better amplifier ?

Richard Clark allows the equalizer to be added to whichever amplifier the listener wants. It can be added to the amplifier that the listener perceives as the weaker amplifier . The EQ is most likely to be used when comparing a tube amplifier (which exhibits slight high frequency rolloff) to a solid state amplifier . In that case Richard Clark says he can usually fashion an equalizer out of just a resistor and/or capacitor which for just a few dollars makes the solid state amplifier exhibit the same rolloff as the tube amplifier, and therefore sound the same. If the tube amplifier really sounded better, then modifying the solid state amplifier to sound indistinguishable from it for a few bucks should be a great improvement.

How might allowing clipping in the test affect the results?

It's impossible to know for sure because that would be a different test that has not been done. But Richard Clark seems to think that in clipping, conventional amplifiers would sound about the same, and tube amplifiers would sound different from solid state amplifiers.

Richard Clark reported that he did some preliminary experiments to determine how clipping sounds on different amplifiers . He recorded the amplifier output using special equipment at clipping, 12db over clipping, 18db over clipping, and 24db over clipping. Then he normalized the levels and listened. His perception was that with the same amount of overdrive, the conventional amplifiers sounded the same. With the same amount of overdrive the tube amplifiers sounded worse than the conventional amplifiers . On the basis of that experiment, he said “I believe I am willing to modify my amplifier challenge to allow any amount of clipping as long as the amplifiers have power ratings (actual not advertised) within 10% of each other. This would have to exclude tube amplifiers as they seem to sound much worse and it is obvious”

If a manufacturer reports false power ratings, will that interfere with the test?

No. The test is based on measured power, not rated power .

Does this mean that there is no audible difference between sources, or between speakers?

No. There are listening tests that show small but significant differences among some sources (for instance early CD players versus modern CD players). And speakers typically have 25% or more harmonic distortion. Most everyone agrees that differences among speakers are audible.

Does the phrase "a watt is a watt" convey what this test is about?

Not quite but close. Richard Clark has stated that some amplifiers (such as tubes) have nonlinear frequency response, so a watt from them would not be the same as a watt from an amplifier with flat frequency response.

Do the results indicate I should buy the cheapest amp?

No. You should buy the best amplifier for your purpose. Some of the factors to consider are: reliability, build quality, cooling performance, flexibility, quality of mechanical connections, reputation of manufacturer, special features, size, weight, aesthetics, and cost. Buying the cheapest amplifier will likely get you an unreliable amplifier that is difficult to use and might not have the needed features. The only factor that this test indicates you can ignore is sound quality below clipping.

If you have a choice between a well built reliable low cost amp, and an expensive amplifier that isn't reliable but has a better reputation for sound quality, it can be inferred from this test that you would get more sound for your money by choosing the former.

Do home audio amps qualify for the test?

Yes. In the 2005 version of the test rules, Richard explicitly allows 120V amplifiers in a note at the end.

How can people take the test?

They should contact Richard Clark for the details. As of 2006 Richard Clark is reported to not have a public email account, and David Navone handles technical inquiries for him. Most likely they will need to pay a testing fee and get themselves to his east coast facility.

Is this test still ongoing?

As of early 2006 , there have not been any recent reports of people taking the test, but it appears to still be open to people who take the initiative to get tested.

Do the results prove inaudibility of amplifier differences below clipping?

It's impossible to scientifically prove the lack of something. You cannot prove that there is no Bigfoot monster, because no matter how hard you look, it is always possible that Bigfoot is in the place you didn't look. Similarly, there could always be a amplifier combination or listener for which the test would show an audible difference. So from a scientific point of view, the word “prove” should not be used in reference to the results of this test.

What the test does do is give a degree of certainty that such an audible difference does not exist.

What do people who disagree with the test say?

Some objections that have been raised about the test:

Richard Clark has a strong opinion on this issue and therefore might bias his reports.
In the real world people use amps in the clipping zone, and the test does not cover that situation.
Some audible artifacts are undetectable individually, but when combined with other artifacts they may become audible as a whole. For instance cutting a single graphic EQ level by one db may not be audible, but cutting lots of different EQ levels by the same amount may be audible. Maybe the amps have defects that are only audible when combined with the defects from a particular source, speaker, or system.
Some listeners feel that they can't relax enough to notice subtle differences when they have to make a large number of choices such as in this test.
There is a lack of organized results. Richard Clark only reports his general impressions of the results, but did not keep track of all the scores. He does not know exactly how many people have taken the test, or how many of the people scored “better than average”.
If someone scored significantly better than average, which might mean that they heard audible differences, it is not clear whether Richard Clark followed up and repeated the test enough times with them to verify that the score was not statistically significant.
Is there one sentence that can describe what the test is designed to show?

When compared evenly, the sonic differences between amplifiers operated below clipping are below the audible threshold of human hearing.



Links

Full Rules of the Challenge dated May 25, 2005
Richard Clark's comments on the challenge
A carsound forum thread about the challenge, containing more comments from Richard Clark.
 

Blumlein 88

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And some info to the contrary. As in with loudspeakers most amps are audible under blind testing.

http://mjaudiolab.pl/images/stories/Bryston/swedish14bsstreview.pdf

I believe Richard Clark required two tests of 10 samples scoring 10 of 10 on both to claim the prize money. Basically the odds of this randomly are 1 in 1 million. Which is okay by me, I think 95% is too low a threshold.
 
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tomelex

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It has not been proven that amps sound different based on what speakers you use, within the realm of standard dynamic speakers. On the contrary it has been proven that they do not sound different under a set of reasonable constraints (that correspond well to real world listening experiences).

Here is a write-up of the most famous of these tests that have been done, but they have been conducted many times by other parties.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Richard Clark $10,000 Amplifier Challenge FAQ

by Tom Morrow

Written 6/2006

The Richard Clark Amp Challenge is a listening test intended to show that as long as a modern audio amplifier is operated within its linear range (below clipping), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear. Because thousands of people have taken the test, the test is significant to the audiophile debate over audibility of amplifier differences. This document was written to summarize what the test is, and answer common questions about the test. Richard Clark was not involved in writing this document.

The challenge

Richard Clark is an audio professional. Like many audiophiles, he originally believed the magazines and marketing materials that different amplifier topologies and components colored the sound in unique, clearly audible ways. He later did experiments to quantify and qualify these effects, and was surprised to find them inaudible when volume and other factors were matched.

His challenge is an offer of $10,000 of his own money to anyone who could identify which of two amplifiers was which, by listening only, under a set of rules that he conceived to make sure they both measure “good enough” and are set up the same. Reports are that thousands of people have taken the test, and none has passed the test. Nobody has been able to show an audible difference between two amps under the test rules.

This article will attempt to summarize the important rules and ramifications of the test, but for clarity and brevity some uncontroversial, obvious, or inconsequential rules are left out of this article. The full rules, from which much of this article was derived, are available here and a collection of Richard's comments are available here.

Testing procedure

The testing uses an ABX test device where the listener can switch between hearing amplifier A, amplifier B, and a randomly generated amplifier X which is either A or B. The listener's job is to decide whether source X sounds like A or B. The listener inputs their guess into a computerized scoring system, and they go on to the next identification. The listener can control the volume, within the linear (non-clipped) range of the amps. The listener has full control over the CD player as well. The listener can take as long as they want to switch back and forth between A, B, and X at will.

Passing the test requires two sets of 12 correct identifications, for a total of 24 correct identifications. To speed things up, a preliminary round of 8 identifications, sometimes done without levels or other parameters perfectly matched, is a prerequisite.

Richard Clark normally has CD source, amplifiers, high quality home audio speakers, and listening environment set up in advance. But if the listener requests, they can substitute whatever source, source material, amplifiers, speakers (even headphones), and listening environment they prefer, within stipulated practical limits. The source material must be commercially available music, not test signals. Richard Clark stipulates that the amplifiers must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers, and they must not fail (e.g. thermal shutdown) during the test.

Amplifier requirements

The amplifiers in the test must be operated within their linear power capacity. Power capacity is defined as clipping or 2% THD 20Hz to 10kHz, whichever is less. This means that if one amplifier has more power (Watts) than the other, the amplifiers will be judged within the power range of the least powerful amplifier .

The levels of both left and right channels will be adjusted to match to within .05 dB. Polarity of connections must be maintained so that the signal is not inverted. Left and Right cannot be reversed. Neither amplifier can exhibit excessive noise. Channel separation of the amps must be at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

All signal processing circuitry (e.g. bass boost, filters) must be turned off, and if the amplifier still exhibits nonlinear frequency response, an equalizer will be set by Richard Clark and inserted inline with one of the amps so that they both exhibit identical frequency response. The listener can choose which amplifier gets the equalizer .

FAQs:

How many people have taken the challenge?

Richard Clark says over a couple thousand people have taken the test, and nobody has passed. He used to do the test for large groups of people at various audio seminars, and didn't charge individuals to do the test, which accounted for the vast majority of the people who did the test. Around 1996 was the last of the big tests, and since then he has done the test for small numbers of people on request, for a charge ($200 for unaffiliated individuals, $500 for people representing companies).

When did the challenge start?

Sometime around the year 1990. Richard Clark says in a post on 7/2004 that the test with the $10,000 prize started about 15 years ago.

What were the results of the test?

Nobody has ever successfully passed the test. Richard Clark says that generally the number of correct responses was about the same as the number of incorrect responses, which would be consistent with random guessing. He says in large groups he never observed variation more than 51/49%, but for smaller groups it might vary as much as 60/40%. He doesn't keep detailed logs of the responses because he said they always show random responses.

Is two sets of 12 correct responses a stringent requirement?

Yes. Richard Clark intentionally made the requirements strict because with thousands of people taking the test, even random guessing would eventually cause someone to pass the test if the bar was set low. Since he is offering his own $10,000 to anyone who will pass the test, he wants to protect against the possibility of losing it to random guessing.

However, if the listener is willing to put up their own money for the test as a bet, he will lower the requirements from 12 correct down to as low as 6 correct.

Richard Clark has said “22 out of 24 would be statistically significant. In fact it would prove that the results were audible. Any AVERAGE score more than 65% would do so. But no one has even done that”.”

Do most commercially available amplifiers qualify for this test, even tube amplifiers and class D amplifiers?

Yes. Nearly all currently available amplifiers have specs better than what are required for the test. Tube amplifiers generally qualify, as do full range class D amplifiers. It is not clear whether Richard Clark would allow sub amplifiers with a limited frequency response.

Besides taking Richard Clark's word, how can the results of the test be verified?

Many car audio professionals have taken the test and/or witnessed the test being taken in audio seminars, so there isn't much doubt that the test actually existed and was taken by many people. One respected professional who has taken and witnessed the test is Mark Eldridge. Because the test has been discussed widely on audio internet forums, if there were people who passed the test it seems likely that we would have heard about it. Sometimes there are reports of people who believe they passed the test, but upon further examination it turns out that they only passed the preliminary round of 8 tests, where levels were not matched as closely as for the final test.

How can audio consumers use the results of this test?

When purchasing an amplifier, they can ignore the subjective sound quality claims of marketers. Many amplifier marketers will claim or imply that their amplifiers have some special topology, materials, or magic that makes the sound clearly superior to other amps at all volume levels. Many consumers pay several times more than they otherwise would for that intangible sound quality they think they are getting. This test indicates that the main determinant of sound quality is the amount of power the amplifier can deliver. When played at 150W, an expensive 100W measured amplifier will clip and sound worse than a cheap 200W measured amp.

Does this mean all amps sound the same in a normal install?

No. Richard Clark is very careful to say that amps usually do not sound the same in the real world. The gain setting of an amplifier can make huge differences in how an amplifier sounds, as can details like how crossovers or other filters are set. When played very loud (into clipping), the amplifier with more power will generally sound better than a lower powered amp.

Most people perceive slight differences in amplitude as quality differences rather than loudness. The louder component sounds “faster, more detailed, more full”, not just louder. This perceptual phenomenon is responsible for many people thinking they liked the sound of a component when really they just liked the way it was set up.

I changed amps in my system to another one with the same measured power and I hear a sound quality difference. Does this show that the test results are invalid?

No. Installing a new amplifier involves setting the gains and crossovers, and any slight change you make to those settings is going to affect how things sound.

Is adding an equalizer just a way of “dumbing down” the better amplifier ?

Richard Clark allows the equalizer to be added to whichever amplifier the listener wants. It can be added to the amplifier that the listener perceives as the weaker amplifier . The EQ is most likely to be used when comparing a tube amplifier (which exhibits slight high frequency rolloff) to a solid state amplifier . In that case Richard Clark says he can usually fashion an equalizer out of just a resistor and/or capacitor which for just a few dollars makes the solid state amplifier exhibit the same rolloff as the tube amplifier, and therefore sound the same. If the tube amplifier really sounded better, then modifying the solid state amplifier to sound indistinguishable from it for a few bucks should be a great improvement.

How might allowing clipping in the test affect the results?

It's impossible to know for sure because that would be a different test that has not been done. But Richard Clark seems to think that in clipping, conventional amplifiers would sound about the same, and tube amplifiers would sound different from solid state amplifiers.

Richard Clark reported that he did some preliminary experiments to determine how clipping sounds on different amplifiers . He recorded the amplifier output using special equipment at clipping, 12db over clipping, 18db over clipping, and 24db over clipping. Then he normalized the levels and listened. His perception was that with the same amount of overdrive, the conventional amplifiers sounded the same. With the same amount of overdrive the tube amplifiers sounded worse than the conventional amplifiers . On the basis of that experiment, he said “I believe I am willing to modify my amplifier challenge to allow any amount of clipping as long as the amplifiers have power ratings (actual not advertised) within 10% of each other. This would have to exclude tube amplifiers as they seem to sound much worse and it is obvious”

If a manufacturer reports false power ratings, will that interfere with the test?

No. The test is based on measured power, not rated power .

Does this mean that there is no audible difference between sources, or between speakers?

No. There are listening tests that show small but significant differences among some sources (for instance early CD players versus modern CD players). And speakers typically have 25% or more harmonic distortion. Most everyone agrees that differences among speakers are audible.

Does the phrase "a watt is a watt" convey what this test is about?

Not quite but close. Richard Clark has stated that some amplifiers (such as tubes) have nonlinear frequency response, so a watt from them would not be the same as a watt from an amplifier with flat frequency response.

Do the results indicate I should buy the cheapest amp?

No. You should buy the best amplifier for your purpose. Some of the factors to consider are: reliability, build quality, cooling performance, flexibility, quality of mechanical connections, reputation of manufacturer, special features, size, weight, aesthetics, and cost. Buying the cheapest amplifier will likely get you an unreliable amplifier that is difficult to use and might not have the needed features. The only factor that this test indicates you can ignore is sound quality below clipping.

If you have a choice between a well built reliable low cost amp, and an expensive amplifier that isn't reliable but has a better reputation for sound quality, it can be inferred from this test that you would get more sound for your money by choosing the former.

Do home audio amps qualify for the test?

Yes. In the 2005 version of the test rules, Richard explicitly allows 120V amplifiers in a note at the end.

How can people take the test?

They should contact Richard Clark for the details. As of 2006 Richard Clark is reported to not have a public email account, and David Navone handles technical inquiries for him. Most likely they will need to pay a testing fee and get themselves to his east coast facility.

Is this test still ongoing?

As of early 2006 , there have not been any recent reports of people taking the test, but it appears to still be open to people who take the initiative to get tested.

Do the results prove inaudibility of amplifier differences below clipping?

It's impossible to scientifically prove the lack of something. You cannot prove that there is no Bigfoot monster, because no matter how hard you look, it is always possible that Bigfoot is in the place you didn't look. Similarly, there could always be a amplifier combination or listener for which the test would show an audible difference. So from a scientific point of view, the word “prove” should not be used in reference to the results of this test.

What the test does do is give a degree of certainty that such an audible difference does not exist.

What do people who disagree with the test say?

Some objections that have been raised about the test:

Richard Clark has a strong opinion on this issue and therefore might bias his reports.
In the real world people use amps in the clipping zone, and the test does not cover that situation.
Some audible artifacts are undetectable individually, but when combined with other artifacts they may become audible as a whole. For instance cutting a single graphic EQ level by one db may not be audible, but cutting lots of different EQ levels by the same amount may be audible. Maybe the amps have defects that are only audible when combined with the defects from a particular source, speaker, or system.
Some listeners feel that they can't relax enough to notice subtle differences when they have to make a large number of choices such as in this test.
There is a lack of organized results. Richard Clark only reports his general impressions of the results, but did not keep track of all the scores. He does not know exactly how many people have taken the test, or how many of the people scored “better than average”.
If someone scored significantly better than average, which might mean that they heard audible differences, it is not clear whether Richard Clark followed up and repeated the test enough times with them to verify that the score was not statistically significant.
Is there one sentence that can describe what the test is designed to show?

When compared evenly, the sonic differences between amplifiers operated below clipping are below the audible threshold of human hearing.



Links

Full Rules of the Challenge dated May 25, 2005
Richard Clark's comments on the challenge
A carsound forum thread about the challenge, containing more comments from Richard Clark.

OK, I still stand on my original statements. While this is an interesting test, and one that shows no results for 120VAC amplifier tests (I suppose, but I am sure ,you will find out! And it still does not disprove my original statements) with altered output impedances, which by the way, the test you quote attempts to overcome this issue (that I brought up as a counter to your broad statement of amps sounding the same with the same specs) using EQ as quoted below:

Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier.

A bit sleazy it is too, saying that EQ in one of the amps should make the test easier, pull the other one, its got bells attached, ahahahh, how can attempting (using EQ to help one amp to sound like the other be a proof that all amplifiers sound the same, I mean, really dude. He knew what he was doing when he added that caveat for sure, and it should tell you something as well.

That single test compensation above pretty much ignores my statement, which as a reminder was: although two amps can measure the same FR into a resistor, once a speaker load is put on them the output impedance will come into play, and thus those two amps that measured the same will not sound the same.

There is no way the differences in output impedance do not show up on the FR of normal speakers, A popular American audio magazine does it all the time, and documents it month after month after month after.....

Hearing differences between gear using music is not easy, I am well aware of that believe me, distortions (of various types: linear and non linear) have to be many percent typically, but on a test tone then we are looking at very low distortions needed to hear a difference, although that is common knowledge on this forum I would expect.

I will gladly continue this discussion if presented with something new, unknown, and or factual to counter my specific disagreement with your broad statements about amps sounding the same vs the example I brought up. I have been around this hobby and profession long enough to know I don't know it all but I have done my own tests on many of these things, including this output impedance test, and that was back in the late seventies or eighties, so while I know we all are not old timers, old timers or professionals don't like to re-invent stuff or re-debate known stuff is all.
 

Gorgonzola

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Gosh, some serious verbosity has gone down in this thread: too much for me to read anyway. Any consensus?

I suppose if you believe the properly functioning amps all sound the same, there is little reason to engage with the "people buy amps to suit their subjective preferences" line.

Also, if all amps sound the same it's hard to understand why so many on this forum are concerned for the nth degree of measurement perfectin.

:oops::rolleyes::facepalm:
 

egellings

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Maybe some amp owners think that an amp with more 0's to the right of the decimal before the 1st non-zero digit is reached think that it matters, but have not actually compared two amps, one with reasonably low distortion and the other with preposterously low distortion. More is always better, hey? Personally, I'm happy with something like 0.01 or so percent. I would not be able to hear a better performance than that and know that it sounded better. For me, it wouldn't.
 

Blumlein 88

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I am pretty sure Tomelex has seen me mention the series amp testing before. You place an amp between source and power amp feeding the speakers. You put a dummy load on the DUT, and pad the result down to unity gain. So you can switch the amp in and out instantly. The Swedish AES did a number of such tests. I, not knowing of their method, also did this back around the turn of the century.

I only came across one amp that was pure straight wire with gain that you couldn't hear in circuit. It was a Spectral DMA50. Other good amps came close and wouldn't horribly upset anyone's enjoyment of music. Tube amps were very colored and flattering. The Swedish AES came across one amp that was perfectly straight wire with gain in their blind listening testing. It was one of the large Bryston amplifiers. I don't have a list of how many amps they tested. They did have a SS Audio Research come close. I would note some of their test signals were artificial and not music. With music a few more were basically clean gain. The toughest test signal according to them was a recorded metronome.

So I don't doubt that David Clark's tests were correct with music for many amps. Nor that plenty of fine amps would sound close enough to identical not to worry about it with music. Nor do I doubt with special test signals and a chance to switch instantly in and out of circuit few amps would in those conditions be fully transparent.

Would be nice if stereophile would record a few standard tracks of music with each amp connected to their dummy load while testing, and make those files available for download and listening. If they did this for each amp reviewed, I think the results would be very interesting.
 

NirreFirre

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Since then I have compiled the amplifier SINAD list below. Interesting how even the best Krell were not competitive to modern class D (and AHB2) amplifiers. So with Dan D'Agostino solo company he must have thought "if you can't compete on this front, just let go". Now his current amps are on the bottom of the list....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZlTOYxmPs938gqHjtDABkWS-MApu7uJjzIGnJ2Elm6Y/edit?usp=sharing
Matias, that's a very nice sheet! Do you mind reading my post about building/finding a comparison tool for all this amp data we (ehum, Amir) now are collecting (creating)? A reply on the topic would be great,
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-amps-measured-graphs-for-comparisons.20089/
 

thornclaw

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i think im more in the camp of better measurements equals better sound but can we be sure were measuring all of the qualities of an audio signal? an analogy would be measuring the performance of a car. it can be measured in terms of 0-60. quartermile, skidpad etc but some things such as weight transfer and brake modulation arent really quantifiable. maybe this is what dagostino/pass are referring to. it is also possible they realized they cant outengineer putzeys/risbo and decided to move the goalpost
 

BDWoody

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i think im more in the camp of better measurements equals better sound but can we be sure were measuring all of the qualities of an audio signal?

You mean beyond frequency, amplitude and phase?
 

MakeMineVinyl

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If 'best' measurements meant everything, people (like me) would not be purchasing tube and / or class "A" single ended amplifiers. If 'best' meant everything - well - that's already been accomplished, and there would be only one model of amplifier, made by one manufacturer, available in maybe a couple output wattages; a black box - silver if you wanted to get really wild and crazy - probably class "D", which would sit unassumingly on a shelf never to be noticed beyond the initial hookup. Then there would be no use for forums like this, no reviews, no hope, no love, no hate, no humanity. Just a perfect black box and empty space beyond. :rolleyes:
 

Raindog123

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You mean beyond frequency, amplitude and phase?
Well, there are also dynamic characteristics. And group behaviors... While at the end those can also be represented by “frequency, amplitude and phase” functions, those “transfer functions” are usually more complex - both analytically and empirically - than a “frequency response” or “a single-tone harmonics or noise spectrum” we usually measure/discuss...
 
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MakeMineVinyl

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Well, there are also dynamic characteristics. And group behaviors... While at the end those can also be represented by “frequency, amplitude and phase” functions, those “transfer functions” are usually more complex - both analytically and empirically - than a “frequency response” or “a single tone noise spectrum” we usually measure/discuss...
In theory, null testing would remove any signal, music or otherwise, leaving only the difference between the input and the output. There's a big question of how this could be put into quantifiable terms which could be compared between different units however, and the question of "what music" would have to be standardized. But I agree that there is a hole in our measurement regimen which leaves out testing with real world musical signals. I personally think this type of test could be important.
 

thornclaw

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“probably class "D", which would sit unassumingly on a shelf never to be noticed beyond the initial hookup. Then there would be no use for forums like this, no reviews, no hope, no love, no hate, no humanity. Just a perfect black box and empty space beyond.”

eigentakt in aramaic means ‘end of an era’
 

Raindog123

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...But I agree that there is a hole in our measurement regimen which leaves out testing with real world musical signals. I personally think this type of test could be important.
I think we’re on the same page. In theory, there is a “transfer function” that fully describes behavior of an information channel. And a lot of effort has been put together to develop mathematical language to describe this function. And a lot of progress has been made to practically measure it. However, one would be really mistaken that a SINAD number and a couple of response-curves to simple input “test vectors” we like to look at are the same as a complete quantitative description of an audio system or component.
 

dualazmak

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....
However, one would be really mistaken that a SINAD number and a couple of response-curves to simple input “test vectors” we like to look at are the same as a complete quantitative description of an audio system or component.

I agree, and I like this statement by Keith/Purité Audio, where he wrote;
You must hear equipment in your own room in your own system, compare unsighted if there isn’t an immediately apparent difference/improvement. To go further if there isn’t a significant improvement then don’t change anything, the largest gains are speakers and room.
Keith
 

rdenney

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Well, there are also dynamic characteristics. And group behaviors... While at the end those can also be represented by “frequency, amplitude and phase” functions, those “transfer functions” are usually more complex - both analytically and empirically - than a “frequency response” or “a single-tone harmonics or noise spectrum” we usually measure/discuss...
Yes. Everything can be represented by frequency, amplitude, and phase, and those other measurements are really secondary attributes or aggregations that affect the shape of the wave variously, often at some small, dynamic scale.

If the wave coming out is the same as the wave going in even considering complex waves feeding complex loads, then those other attributes are...correct. But the usual battery of measurements either simplify the input signal (by using simple waveforms) or they aggregate errors in ways that may not always distinguish them usefully, it seems to me. This is partly why the measurements even experts are interested in have changed over the years, and why tools for making measurements keep improving. Measurements are an objective surrogate for our subjective ears, and surrogates imply models. All models are false, even if some are useful.

That said, it seems clear to me that the differences I read about are not only immeasurable, but are also empirically unrepeatable. And thus are unhelpful. Yet I still take the advice of trained and experienced listeners. Even Amir’s reviews often show interesting distinctions between measured results and observed attributes during a listening test. They are interesting because of the thought process required to explain them, which is for me the richest part of those reviews.

Rick “unwilling to discount the impressions of trained and experienced listeners even if poetically expressed, at least without due consideration alongside measurements” Denney
 

tomelex

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i think im more in the camp of better measurements equals better sound but can we be sure were measuring all of the qualities of an audio signal? an analogy would be measuring the performance of a car. it can be measured in terms of 0-60. quartermile, skidpad etc but some things such as weight transfer and brake modulation arent really quantifiable. maybe this is what dagostino/pass are referring to. it is also possible they realized they cant outengineer putzeys/risbo and decided to move the goalpost


We certainly can measure all "electrical" qualities of an audio signal, we can measure the changes made to it by an audio device, hooked up to any load we wish. The key thing here is, music is audio signals, but we don't really measure music. We can compare as blumlein 88 brought up a few posts ago, etc, using music if we want. It is just easier to use known sources for example tones that we know what we are starting with. Your analogy is fine about cars up to a point, but if you know electronics, you know we can measure every aspect of an audio signal. There is nothing we can not measure, there are a ton of things the "audio marketing community" do not measure, simply because no one (either governments or industry associations) ever mandated such extensive measuring.

Better measurements mean better replication of the input signal, but they do not mean better sound, as that is up to your tastes and preferences, its semantics but it is important to distinguish between measuring and personal preferences. If you found an audio system (a systems is the audio gear, speakers and room) that you loved, it could be re-created at another place, by using measurements, but unless you have multiple homes and the finances to do so, its not likely anyone really is going to have that as an ask.
 
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