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Complaint thread about speaker measurements

thewas

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How?
It can be calculated from surface vibration measurement, the engineer I know who designs speakers for OEM clients told me he does it this way.
How would a measurement microphone (or your ear) know which bit of the air pressure wibbling it was picking up was coming from the drive unit and which proportion was the spurious bit coming from the cabinet?
Maybe somebody has come up with a way of doing it but If so I haven't seen it published yet.
A classical microphone can't but a microphone array like used in an sound intensity probe or an acoustic camera can measure (and visualise) the direction of the sound radiation but that's neither cheap nor problem-free due to the chassis driver sound dispersed around the housing so as you wrote, usually operating vibration modal analysis of the housing is done.
 

Frank Dernie

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Unless you prefer changing over controlling, not sure what you are going after? :confused:

This non-fact about cross-bracing is published in the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook and is widely applied in better cabinet designs.
Yes it changes it not controls it.
Cross bracing increases the frequency of the resonance(s) and probably increases the number of them.
Static thinking applied to dynamic systems is common, it doesn't make it correct.
A stiffer cabinet will resonate at a higher frequency, maybe in the region where the ear is most sensitive.
Lossy cabinets are better in general and radiate less spurious sound.
Any method reducing radiation from the cabinet is good.
Brute force and ignorance probably works reasonably well but may not. It certainly isn't what I would call a clever engineered solution.
 

sergeauckland

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Wilson achieve by brute force and cash what Harbeth achieve by clever engineering.
I quite like some of the Wilson speakers too.
I don't write much about electronics since it is not my expertise. Resonance and vibration is.
A lot of complete bollox is written about it.
Everything resonates, making it stiffer increases the frequency, making it heavier lowers it.
Considering real-world shipping costs and potential transit damage, light and stiff seems a better way than heavy and floppy. Heavy and stiff just seems the worst of both worlds. Those of a certain age might remember the Celestion SL600, which was effectively an SL6 in a (very expensive to manufacture) lightweight aerolam cabinet. The SL600 was more than twice as expensive (£699 vs £299 in 1985).

S.
 

sergeauckland

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Yes it changes it not controls it.
Cross bracing increases the frequency of the resonance(s) and probably increases the number of them.
Static thinking applied to dynamic systems is common, it doesn't make it correct.
A stiffer cabinet will resonate at a higher frequency, maybe in the region where the ear is most sensitive.
Lossy cabinets are better in general and radiate less spurious sound.
Any method reducing radiation from the cabinet is good.
Brute force and ignorance probably works reasonably well but may not. It certainly isn't what I would call a clever engineered solution.
Increasing the resonant frequency by increasing stiffness has merit in a three (or more) way 'speaker with separate enclosures, such that the bass cabinet resonances are moved up into the midrange, where even though the ear is more sensitive, the bass cabinet won't excite those frequencies as they're outside the bass passband. It relies of course on steep crossover slopes and well behaved drivers. Ditto for the mid and HF, where resonances can be pushed up out of the way. In a loudspeaker with a single cabinet, the Harbeth approach makes a lot of sense.

Tweeters, especially metal-dome tweeters often have 'oil-can' modes which need to be kept away from the audio passband. One undesirable consequence of so-called HD audio and high sampling rates is that loudspeakers now need, for marketing reasons, to go way above the audio band where it's pretty difficult to avoid tweeter resonances.

S.
 

pma

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Wilson has "adult" sound, it accepts high power and is able to play loud and keeps low distortion up to high SPL. I am speaking about Maxx now, as I have quite enough personal experience with this speaker, as well as with Sophia. I am not sure that Harbeth will make such SPL at low distortion. I have much less experience with Harbeth, but to me it sounds like seventies, with very lively cabinet and very strong colorations. Not my cup of tea.
 

Frank Dernie

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Wilson has "adult" sound, it accepts high power and is able to play loud and keeps low distortion up to high SPL. I am speaking about Maxx now, as I have quite enough personal experience with this speaker, as well as with Sophia. I am not sure that Harbeth will make such SPL at low distortion. I have much less experience with Harbeth, but to me it sounds like seventies, with very lively cabinet and very strong colorations. Not my cup of tea.
I liked the original WATT. Auditioned the Grand Slamm and original WAMM which was huge and flash but disappointing, perhaps because there had been so much hype. In the same room the dealer had Goldmund Apologues which had massively superior instrumental timbre. I ended up with Goldmund Epilogs which were just superceding the Apologue.
I am storing a pair of Harbeth Monitor 40 actives for a member here and own P3ES with the Xtender bass stand.
Harbeth speakers have extremely low colouration with their sophisticated cone materials, the Wilsons go much louder, yes, but have considerably higher measured distortion (colouration) and much more old fashioned drivers than Harbeth in fact.
 

Wombat

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What is 'adult' sound? Something like in the Harry Met Sally restaurant scene? ;)
 
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Wombat

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Increasing the resonant frequency by increasing stiffness has merit in a three (or more) way 'speaker with separate enclosures, such that the bass cabinet resonances are moved up into the midrange, where even though the ear is more sensitive, the bass cabinet won't excite those frequencies as they're outside the bass passband. It relies of course on steep crossover slopes and well behaved drivers. Ditto for the mid and HF, where resonances can be pushed up out of the way. In a loudspeaker with a single cabinet, the Harbeth approach makes a lot of sense.

Tweeters, especially metal-dome tweeters often have 'oil-can' modes which need to be kept away from the audio passband. One undesirable consequence of so-called HD audio and high sampling rates is that loudspeakers now need, for marketing reasons, to go way above the audio band where it's pretty difficult to avoid tweeter resonances.

S.

Bracing to shift cabinet resonances mostly to above approx 2kHz in the 32-500Hz bass/low-mids enclosure. Constrained layer damping added, particularly at the castor mounting locations. Cab internal volume 13.75 cu.ft.


IMG_05662.jpg



No internal cross-bracing.

IMG_05602.jpg
 
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stevenswall

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I'd like to lodge a formal complaint that every other review site should be doing this, and this site is approaching InnerFidelity levels of usefulness from when Tyll worked there.

Thanks for ruining the other forums for me... and making me consider hundreds in shipping to see how an 8260 scores when I pull myself away from them. (Interstellar sounds good for tonight I think.)
 

stevenswall

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Please don't remeasure the Neumann 80's.:p
Please measure the level of self generated noise on active speakers and everything coming out of the bass reflex tube.

Agreed: Hiss should be something measured, and distortion would be great. Maybe then I can rest from people telling me it's my source causing hiss in the Kali IN-8, JBL LSR308, and others.

Oh, and that Neumann KH80, based on what I've seen so far, seems to be the only two way speaker that doesn't have blobby nastiness in the directivity graphs at the crossover point. it's just some extra cancellation that is more even instead of the weird lobing, null, and then increase like everything else.

I'd love to see the rating on that. Not too expensive either.

Edit: Found the review: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh-80-dsp-monitor-review.11018/

Also: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...i_eE1JS-JQYSZy7kCQZMKtRnjTOn578fYZPJ/pubhtml#
 
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thewas

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Agreed: Hiss should be something measured, and distortion would be great. Maybe then I can rest from people telling me it's my source causing hiss in the Kali IN-8, JBL LSR308, and others.
Although to tell the truth, anyone can hear their inherent hiss and no one denies it, or do some? Its one of the prices to pay for paying much less compared to a Genelec, Neumann etc.

Oh, and that Neumann KH80, based on what I've seen so far, seems to be the only two way speaker that doesn't have blobby nastiness in the directivity graphs at the crossover point. it's just some extra cancellation that is more even instead of the weird lobing, null, and then increase like everything else.
That has less to do with being 2 way speaker but being vertically a non coincident sound source, so it usually happens also on 3 or more way non-coaxial speakers. The advantage on the KH80 and the Revel C52 that it doesn't appear much is that they use small mid drivers (which can be crossed also higher), so a non-coaxial speaker with larger mid(-woofers) will always have it more dominant.

By the way the Genelec 8260 is discontinued now and officially replaced by the 8361.
 

sergeauckland

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Bracing to shift cabinet resonances mostly to above approx 2kHz in the 32-500Hz bass/low-mids enclosure. Constrained layer damping added, particularly at the castor mounting locations. Cab internal volume 13.75 cu.ft.


View attachment 48563


No internal cross-bracing.

View attachment 48565
Similar to what B@W did in my 801s. Clearly wasn't rigid enough as they then went on to Matrix construction.

Internal Bracing.JPG
 

DKT88

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I find Frank Dernie's discussion of the BBC cabinet design quite interesting, never heard about this elegant solution before. I am wondering if my Spendor SP3/1R2 (classic) that are about 6 yrs old use this cab design approach.

edit - yeah they use the BBC type design but with thin MDF instead of plywood.
 
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Frank Dernie

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Frank Dernie

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So, this would be a wrong concept?

View attachment 48593

It depends what you are trying to achieve. If you just think stiffer is better, as most engineers not used to considering dynamics do, and you don't mind a lot of small area panels with relatively high resonant frequencies this is spot on.
If you want to make the radiation less and at frequencies one's ear is less sensitive to then maybe not, though it could be, analysis would show whether it is or not.
The only way to know is to do an FE analysis and calculate the radiation from the cabinet. Which the engineering type speaker designers have been doing for decades, though many companies take what in motor racing we used to call the "hairy-arsed" engineering approach which is a bit hit and miss.
 
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