Sigberg Audio Manta Cardioid active speakers: Full measurements (Spinorama)

[Matt_Holland]

As mentioned earlier as well, it's also important to understand what happens when you put two speakers in a room, the Mantas are completely balanced in-room in the 1-2khz area:

View attachment 335759

Wow! I’ve never come across the idea of tuning a speaker as a pair in-room.
Seems obvious though.
Do you know why the 1-2KHz region smoothed out when measured as a pair?

 

[sigbergaudio]

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Interesting. Looks like a mix of Dutch&Dutch 8C, Sigberg Audio SBS.1 and the Mesanovic RTM10

 

[sigbergaudio]

Wow! I’ve never come across the idea of tuning a speaker as a pair in-room.
Seems obvious though.
Do you know why the 1-2KHz region smoothed out when measured as a pair?

At least listening to the speakers the way the customer will use them should make sense, no? I think that is relatively common. Beyond that they're obviously not just tuned to one single room, that wouldn't work very well. They been both measured and listened to in several different rooms and room types (reflective, less reflective, large, small), as well as measured anechoically. The sum of everything is what gives information on how to tune.

With regards to the response correction, the reflections and cancellations resulting from two speakers playing in a room can have this effect.

 

[Matt_Holland]

At least listening to the speakers the way the customer will use them should make sense, no? I think that is relatively common. Beyond that they're obviously not just tuned to one single room, that wouldn't work very well. They been both measured and listened to in several different rooms and room types (reflective, less reflective, large, small), as well as measured anechoically. The sum of everything is what gives information on how to tune.

With regards to the response correction, the reflections and cancellations resulting from two speakers playing in a room can have this effect.

Thanks for the reply.

My main point is that if speaker designers tune a single speaker to sound/measure best when used in a stereo pair then what does this mean for reviews based on Spins of a single speaker where in isolation the single speaker results are less favourable compared to a pair working together?

I would have thought that the combination of two speakers’ resulting balance is very dependent on the content being played through them. For example playing and measuring pink noise through both together could result in a favourable measurement, but music content will have varying spectral content in each channel.

 

[sigbergaudio]

My main point is that if speaker designers tune a single speaker to sound/measure best when used in a stereo pair then what does this mean for reviews based on Spins of a single speaker where in isolation the single speaker results are less favourable compared to a pair working together?

It means they don't necessarily tell the whole story.

I would have thought that the combination of two speakers’ resulting balance is very dependent on the content being played through them. For example playing and measuring pink noise through both together could result in a favourable measurement, but music content will have varying spectral content in each channel.

That is a fair point. So I do not only measure in stereo.

Here is the left and right individually in-room (same room as previous post), still balanced at 1-2khz.

 

[poopy]

As mentioned earlier as well, it's also important to understand what happens when you put two speakers in a room, the Mantas are completely balanced in-room in the 1-2khz area:

View attachment 335759

No toe-in isn't it?

 

[sigbergaudio]

No toe-in isn't it?

No toe-in on these measurements, no.

 

[poopy]

No toe-in on these measurements, no.

I like the convenience of having no toe-in in a domestic environment, besides the fact that the Mantas measure extremely well in that position. Visually it looks 'better' I think in a living room. And no need anymore to use dual laser pointers and measurement tapes to try to get equal toe-in angle for each speaker....

 

[sigbergaudio]

I like the convenience of having no toe-in in a domestic environment, besides the fact that the Mantas measure extremely well in that position. Visually it looks 'better' I think in a living room. And no need anymore to use dual laser pointers and measurement tapes to try to get equal toe-in angle for each speaker....

On that topic there's actually an app for that at least on IOS. You place your phone on top of the speaker and reset it, and then it measures the toe in (in degrees) as you angle the speaker. Pretty neat. It's called SpeakerAngle.

 

[poopy]

On that topic there's actually an app for that at least on IOS. You place your phone on top of the speaker and reset it, and then it measures the toe in (in degrees) as you angle the speaker. Pretty neat. It's called SpeakerAngle.

Will try in the coming days! Thanks for the tip

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Interesting. Looks like a mix of Dutch&Dutch 8C, Sigberg Audio SBS.1 and the Mesanovic RTM10

BTW, props to you for not crapping on your potential competitors' offerings. I've always believed the best way to compete, especially in front of your potential customers, is to acknowledge that other people make good stuff too, and rather just to attempt to prove you have something to offer that's uniquely different and better.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Another somewhat interesting find with the Manta and spinorama, is how good the score is with EQ. It looks like the preference score engine basically disagrees with how the speaker is tuned, more than that the inherent qualities are problematic. With EQ it jumps from 6.8 to 8.3 (compared to with just sub).

The engine suggests lowering the midbass and removing the dip at 1500hz to get the score up to 8.3. Both of these are in my opinion wrong decisions with regards to what sounds most natural in-room, and taking into account the overall dispersion characteristics.

So at least in my opinion, the frequency response giving a 6.8 score sounds better than the one giving 8.3. Something to ponder.

 

[thewas]

Your argumentation sounds a bit weird to me though, on one hand you seem to disagree about how the score represents good sound and on the other hand you use it as an argument to show how good your loudspeaker is.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Your argumentation sounds a bit weird to me though, on one hand you seem to disagree about how the score represents good sound and on the other hand you use it as an argument to show how good your loudspeaker is.

I am not really doing either, I am showing an example where reality is more complex than the preference score engine can account for. So does a speaker with a preference score of 8.3 sound better than one with 6.8? We don't know for sure.

 

[Blockader]

1- Preference score does favor speakers with rising DI over speakers with flat DI. However in Floyd's blind listening tests flat DI speaker(only one! Revel Ultima Studio) was preferred more than speakers with rising DI. If you want to include JBL M2 as flat DI speaker(its DI is flat from 800hz to 9000hz IIRC), count that in too. Talking from memory, its preference score was close or tied with Revel Ultima2.
2- Preference scores tend to prioritize speakers with a smooth, flat on-axis response and good extension above other characteristics. However, some respected people in the community like Geddes question the flat on-axis response factor in preference scores. KEF Blade I/II's performance suggests that some people at KEF also believe a flat on-axis response isn't the ultimate indicator of user preference. Basically the idea is, shape of on-axis response should be determined based on the DI of speakers. As an example, Flat DI speakers should have slightly recessed on-axis treble. This viewpoint is based on the observation that humans are accustomed to environments where objects absorb high frequencies, leading to a natural preference for speakers that mimic this effect by having an in-room response with subdued high frequencies. Geddes elaborates on this concept further in one of his videos, explaining why a naturally declining high-frequency response might be more appealing. In other words, both flat on-axis + rising DI and tilted down on-axis + flat DI are good approaches.
Genelec 8361's also have a sort of flat DI and their treble response is also a bit recessed in last 2 octaves.

 

[thewas]

KEF Blade I/II's performance suggests that some people at KEF also believe a smooth on-axis response isn't the ultimate indicator of user preference.

Maybe you mean flat response instead of smooth as the Blades measure quite smooth on-axis?

Measurements for speaker KEF Blade 1 Meta

www.spinorama.org

Measurements for speaker KEF Blade 2 Meta

www.spinorama.org

 

[Blockader]

Maybe you mean flat response instead of smooth as the Blades measure quite smooth on-axis?

Measurements for speaker KEF Blade 1 Meta

www.spinorama.org

Measurements for speaker KEF Blade 2 Meta

www.spinorama.org

I couldn't phrase it right I guess. I changed some parts in my post to make my points clearer. I think we all can agree that a smooth on-axis response is essential and positively impacts user preference. The smoothness of on-axis response prevents auditory masking, ensuring the audibility of small details in recordings.

 

[Soniclife]

I am not really doing either, I am showing an example where reality is more complex than the preference score engine can account for. So does a speaker with a preference score of 8.3 sound better than one with 6.8? We don't know for sure.

This would make a great blind test, as it's just a DSP change no complicated switching gear is involved. A clear cut demonstration that the score isn't reliable at higher numbers would be important.

 

[sigbergaudio]

You sort of see the problem especially around 1-2khz if you look off-axis.


Here's 10-30-60 with the original tuning:

And here's 10-30-60 with the suggested EQ, where the off-axis energy is bunching up between 1-2khz.

 

[Blockader]

@sigbergaudio what was the reason for not using digital crossovers in your designs? (you could EQ the on-axis easily too)