Sigberg Audio Manta Cardioid active speakers: Full measurements (Spinorama)

[sigbergaudio]

Disclaimer#1: Klippel measurements from us (the manufacturer), not independent measurements.

Disclaimer#2: Cleared with moderators that it would be okay to post this thread for specific discussion around the measurements and technical aspect of the speakers. For discussions related more specifically to the company/products/purchasing/how they look/basically anything not related to the measurements or technical design, please post in the Manta development thread in the Desperate dealers forum.


Many have asked if we would send our speakers to Amir or Erin for measurements. We've not done that, but we've finally taken a full set of measurements in the anechoic chamber of Seas, documented with their Klippel software. This has then been published to www.spinorama.org (Big thanks to @pierre for his great work on this site).

Full measurements available here: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/Sigberg Audio Manta/Sigberg Audio/index_vendor-v1-20231028.html

For those focused on the preference score, please note that this score doesn't really make sense for these speakers, since the score rely heavily on bass / bass extension, and these speakers are explicitly designed to be paired with subwoofers. For an indication one may look at the "w/sub" preference score (6.8), but the base score is not valid. What is more interesting is the detailed graphs.

These are 3-way active speakers with dual, passive cardioid systems. The lower chamber and driver is operating from ~80-600hz, while the upper chamber is operating from 600hz and up. It is part of a 4-way speaker system where the bass below 100hz is handled by one or preferrably two subwoofers. The integration with our subwoofers is seamless both with regards to frequency response and phase. Note that the measurements are of the speakers only, which is why the roll-off are so early in the low-end.

They are designed for little to no toe-in, so actual listening angle is 10-15 degrees (not on-axis).

A couple of graphs (rest available on spinorama.org):

Full measurements available here: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/Sigberg Audio Manta/Sigberg Audio/index_vendor-v1-20231028.html

I hope some interesting discussions can come out of these measurements, and in the same way as I've been as open and transparent as possible in our development threads, I will try to answer any questions connected to the measurements and technical/functional design to the best of my ability.

I predict some interesting discussion around picture perfect measurements vs perceived sound quality. An interesting observation is that with regards to linearity and preference score, the Mantas measures "worse" than our own SBS.1 speakers at half the price.

We also have some compromises between on-axis and off-axis that probably makes the on-axis seem a bit untidy to some.
The directivity is of course also an interesting aspect.

A similar thread for the SBS.1 speaker is available here.

 

[sweetchaos]

Again…

It’s great to see manufacturers that are transparent with their measurements.

 

[staticV3]

Very nice to see some more cardioid options on the market!
And thank you so much for publishing your measurements!

@sigbergaudio If you don't mind me asking, where do you see the Manta's strengths compared to the very similarly priced Kii Three and D&D 8c?

 

[ryanosaur]

Again, very cool to see! Thank you for sharing this too!

 

[eddantes]

What is the point of a cardioid construction for a speaker that appears to be bass limited, or did I misunderstand something?

 

[Everett T]

Disclaimer#1: Klippel measurements from us (the manufacturer), not independent measurements.

Disclaimer#2: Cleared with moderators that it would be okay to post this thread for specific discussion around the measurements and technical aspect of the speakers. For discussions related more specifically to the company/products/purchasing/how they look/basically anything not related to the measurements or technical design, please post in the Manta development thread in the Desperate dealers forum.


Many have asked if we would send our speakers to Amir or Erin for measurements. We've not done that, but we've finally taken a full set of measurements in the anechoic chamber of Seas, documented with their Klippel software. This has then been published to www.spinorama.org (Big thanks to @pierre for his great work on this site).

Full measurements available here: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/Sigberg Audio Manta/Sigberg Audio/index_vendor.html

For those focused on the preference score, please note that this score doesn't really make sense for these speakers, since the score rely heavily on bass / bass extension, and these speakers are explicitly designed to be paired with subwoofers. For an indication one may look at the "w/sub" preference score (6.8), but the base score is not valid. What is more interesting is the detailed graphs.

These are 3-way active speakers with dual, passive cardioid systems. The lower chamber and driver is operating from ~80-600hz, while the upper chamber is operating from 600hz and up. It is part of a 4-way speaker system where the bass below 100hz is handled by one or preferrably two subwoofers. The integration with our subwoofers is seamless both with regards to frequency response and phase. Note that the measurements are of the speakers only, which is why the roll-off are so early in the low-end.

They are designed for little to no toe-in, so actual listening angle is 10-15 degrees (not on-axis).

A couple of graphs (rest available on spinorama.org):

Full measurements available here: https://www.spinorama.org/speakers/Sigberg Audio Manta/Sigberg Audio/index_vendor.html

I hope some interesting discussions can come out of these measurements, and in the same way as I've been as open and transparent as possible in our development threads, I will try to answer any questions connected to the measurements and technical/functional design to the best of my ability.

I predict some interesting discussion around picture perfect measurements vs perceived sound quality. An interesting observation is that with regards to linearity and preference score, the Mantas measures "worse" than our own SBS.1 speakers at half the price.

We also have some compromises between on-axis and off-axis that probably makes the on-axis seem a bit untidy to some.
The directivity is of course also an interesting aspect.

A similar thread for the SBS.1 speaker is available here.

Like the horizontal plot, sweet!

 

[Purité Audio]

Can only agree, transparency is everything thank you Thorbjørn.
Keith

 

[Everett T]

What is the point of a cardioid construction for a speaker that appears to be bass limited, or did I misunderstand something?

The speakers are meant to be accompanied with subwoofers, and how low do you believe the cardiod response should be?

 

[Sancus]

What is the point of a cardioid construction for a speaker that appears to be bass limited, or did I misunderstand something?

I think most of the benefit of cardioid for domestic rooms is reducing the amount of room interaction in the difficult to treat region from 100-500hz or so where typically designed speakers are omni.

My understanding is that below 100hz it's unclear how useful cardioid is indoors due to the wavelengths involved. And especially not in a system designed to use subwoofers and presumably take advantage of multi-sub room correction.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Very nice to see some more cardioid options on the market!
And thank you so much for publishing your measurements!

@sigbergaudio If you don't mind me asking, where do you see the Manta's strengths compared to the very similarly priced Kii Three and D&D 8c?

The answer to this question belongs in the desperate dealers forum, so I replied to your question there.

 

[RobL]

The Olive score wasn’t very kind to the Manta…is this mostly due to bass extension? I’m aware they are designed to mate with the/a matching sub

Edit: sorry, skimmed the thread and missed your comment about preference score in the first post.

 

[sigbergaudio]

The Olive score wasn’t very kind to the Manta…is this mostly due to bass extension? I’m aware they are designed to mate with the/a matching sub

Yes, I mentioned that in the first post:

For those focused on the preference score, please note that this score doesn't really make sense for these speakers, since the score rely heavily on bass / bass extension, and these speakers are explicitly designed to be paired with subwoofers. For an indication one may look at the "w/sub" preference score (6.8), but the base score is not valid.

Beyond that, we do not design for maximum flatness (we could have done). I'm both emphasising off-axis response, and have also opted to use very low Q filters (primarily below 1, and almost all filters are 0.7), which means it's not possible to iron out every little ripple.

 

[RobL]

How big is the Seas anechoic chamber? NRC’s is not useful below 100hz, is theirs similar?

 

[sigbergaudio]

How big is the Seas anechoic chamber? NRC’s is not useful below 100hz, is their’s similar?

They claim it's precise down to around 70hz, which may be true. They have peaks at 40hz and 25hz or thereabouts. I actually tried to do a measurement of the full system but it ended up being too time consuming and not possible to get what came across as accurate measurements without EQing the sub, and then we're out in "you're cheating"-land, so I ended up just measuring the speakers alone.

Here is a measurement of our SBS.1 speaker together with our 10D subwoofer in that chamber. It at least shows that the integration is pretty seamless (crossover at 100hz). A measurement like this of the Manta + 10D would be similar.

 

[eddantes]

I think most of the benefit of cardioid for domestic rooms is reducing the amount of room interaction in the difficult to treat region from 100-500hz or so where typically designed speakers are omni.

My understanding is that below 100hz it's unclear how useful cardioid is indoors due to the wavelengths involved. And especially not in a system designed to use subwoofers and presumably take advantage of multi-sub room correction.

Thanks for the response! You see I was indeed mistaken in assuming cardioid was effective from 100hz down, and not 100hz up. Also, I had assumed woofers become omni at ~80-100, but it is probably me confusing this with human ability pinpoint sound location. Cheers!

 

[sigbergaudio]

Thanks for the response! You see I was indeed mistaken in assuming cardioid was effective from 100hz down, and not 100hz up. Also, I had assumed woofers become omni at ~80-100, but it is probably me confusing this with human ability pinpoint sound location. Cheers!

This speaker actually has dual cardioid systems / enclosures, the midrange is cardioid as well.

 

[prestigetone]

Great work. I love to see the cold hard facts.

 

[Purité Audio]

The Mantas and the two D10 subs create the best sound I have heard to date .
Keith

 

[Emlin]

Very nice to see some more cardioid options on the market!
And thank you so much for publishing your measurements!

@sigbergaudio If you don't mind me asking, where do you see the Manta's strengths compared to the very similarly priced Kii Three and D&D 8c?

Actually, they are only similarly priced if you forget to buy the necessary subwoofers.

 

[Emlin]

The Mantas and the two D10 subs create the best sound I have heard to date .
Keith

How does one discriminate between sounds?