Can a phono pre make so much difference to surface noise?

[mhardy6647]

Pardon my ignorance but what are ML or MR styli?

Thank you for asking!
I had the same question... actually, having slept on it, I am thinking those are Audio-Technica stylus part number prefixes, which might be related to stylus geometry.
I have not cared for the sound of most A-T cartridges I've (ever) heard -- going back to the 1970s -- so I don't pay too much attention to them nor do I know too, too much about them.

 

[cgallery]

Thank you for asking!
I had the same question... actually, having slept on it, I am thinking those are Audio-Technica stylus part number prefixes, which might be related to stylus geometry.
I have not cared for the sound of most A-T cartridges I've (ever) heard -- going back to the 1970s -- so I don't pay too much attention to them nor do I know too, too much about them.

Plenty of others use them. ML=MicroLine, which is Audio Technica's trademark for the shape. MR=MicroRidge, which is Obray's trademark (they're the actual supplier of the stylus gem and cantilever assembly, located in Japan). Jico calls this shape the SAS, but they're still made by Obray.

There can be small differences in dimensions but the shapes are all the same.

 

[Richard G]

MicroRidge or MicroLine profile.

Glad you mentioned that. I’d heard of eg Shibata and Jico SAS, but as I knew nothing of the Micro … … I looked.

Found an excellent article describing the advantages and disadvantages of nearly all the major stylus profiles

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/audiophile-insights/analog-insights/phono-cartridge-stylus-shapes/

< I’ve got two or three decent turntables - a Linn, one of the better Denons and a variant of the Lenco GL75
All soon to be serviced and new carts fitted, and one with a better arm
Learning the basics of the profiles will help me choose better cartridges

 

[Petrushka]

Now that it’s been mentioned, my Estate sale Technics 1200 came with an AT cartridge with a mictoline stylus.

The biggest drawback to digitizing vinyl is you are locking in the eccentricities of the cartridge.

 

[Richard G]

Plenty of others use them. ML=MicroLine, which is Audio Technica's trademark for the shape. MR=MicroRidge, which is Obray's trademark (they're the actual supplier of the stylus gem and cantilever assembly, located in Japan). Jico calls this shape the SAS, but they're still made by Obray.

There can be small differences in dimensions but the shapes are all the same.

In the article I just linked to above, a little further info. Fwiw

“Variations on this design are the Audio Technica MicroLine, Shure MicroRidge, Dynavector, and JICO SAS.

… the minor/major radius dimensions and footprint for the Audio Technica MicroLine are exactly the same as Jico’s (Namiki’s) SAS stylus, leading him to believe that they are exactly the same stylus, both made by Namiki.
Furthermore, the SAS stylus cannot be purchased for any of the current Audio Technica cartridges which further indicates a potential conflict of interest”

 

[Richard G]

Now that it’s been mentioned, my Estate sale Technics 1200 came with an AT cartridge with a mictoline stylus.

The biggest drawback to digitizing vinyl is you are locking in the eccentricities of the cartridge.

“Eccentricities” can vary - a lot

To share what I have only just learned … ( I made some notes from the article)

near-perfect playback on worn records

a record which is worn from a conical or elliptical stylus -
… you can achieve near-perfect playback with either

• a Shibata
• more complex shapes (discussed below) and
• to a varying extent, the Line Contact

all reach areas of the groove wall that were not contacted by the simpler stylus shapes




MicroRidge is by far my favourite
Benefit
They provide more accurate tracking than all the above hence

• more detailed high-frequency retrieval, and
• considerably lower distortion

even vs a Shibata or a Fine Line

 

[Petrushka]

“Eccentricities” can vary - a lot

To share what I have only just learned … ( I made some notes from the article)

near-perfect playback on worn records

a record which is worn from a conical or elliptical stylus -
… you can achieve near-perfect playback with either

• a Shibata
• more complex shapes (discussed below) and
• to a varying extent, the Line Contact

all reach areas of the groove wall that were not contacted by the simpler stylus shapes




MicroRidge is by far my favourite
Benefit
They provide more accurate tracking than all the above hence

• more detailed high-frequency retrieval, and
• considerably lower distortion

even vs a Shibata or a Fine Line

I concur that my AT cartridge tracks old, worn records without obvious record wear distortion. Provided they are thoroughly clean and dry. Truth is, I no longer hear well enough to care about differences in high frequency response.

 

[Deltaman]

I have a passlabs xono with the larger power supply(they made two different power supplies) I don't hear these clicks and pops after cleaning my records, sometimes 3 times, if I hear any noise I clean it again.

I use a plastic clamp on disc to cover the label and wash them in the kitchen sink. It's an old antiquated phono stage but it works, really well for me, picked it up used for a good price. Being without a streamer for several months I've started back using my TT. I'm amazed at how good it sounds with the right record. Makes me want to explore other phono stages.

 

[Petrushka]

I have a passlabs xono with the larger power supply(they made two different power supplies) I don't hear these clicks and pops after cleaning my records, sometimes 3 times, if I hear any noise I clean it again.

I use a plastic clamp on disc to cover the label and wash them in the kitchen sink. It's an old antiquated phono stage but it works, really well for me, picked it up used for a good price. Being without a streamer for several months I've started back using my TT. I'm amazed at how good it sounds with the right record. Makes me want to explore other phono stages.

I did sink cleaning for years. You can certainly get the big stuff, the clicks and pops. But if you digitize it and look at the waveform, you can see the crackle. It really helps to use a drop of detergent, some alcohol, and vacuum dry them. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Petrushka]

Assembled.

 

[Deltaman]

I know not what digitize mean?

 

[stringer]

I know not what digitize mean?

Convert the analog signal to digital and record it on digital media. I am digitizing all my 45s to put on a server connected to my stereo. I also saved them all on an old android device so I can listen to them on road trips.

 

[Petrushka]

I know not what digitize mean?

Copy to a computer file using a program. There are many possible programs, many of them free.

Top 8 Vinyl to Digital Software

The only thing your record collection lacks is portability, but the best vinyl to digital software is a way to take those LPs with you wherever you go.

fixthephoto.com

I would strongly recommend the SoundForge audio cleaning lab. $19.95. I’ve used an older version of SF for decades. The full version of SF has tons of features not relevant to cleaning and restoring.

Diamond Cut Audio Restoration Tools 11.00

www.diamondcut.com

 

[Deltaman]

Convert the analog signal to digital and record it on digital media. I am digitizing all my 45s to put on a server connected to my stereo. I also saved them all on an old android device so I can listen to them on road trips.

I just looked it up I see now how it's done. Idk if I want to do that, I don't see a need. Is it gonna sound better?

 

[antcollinet]

I just looked it up I see now how it's done. Idk if I want to do that, I don't see a need. Is it gonna sound better?

No, it is not going to sound better.

Benefits are "convenience" and not wearing out the vinyl.

The first is not a benefit for me. Part of the fun of vinyl is...... playing vinyl.

If you have vinyl though because it is the only way to get a particular mastering, then I can see the benefit of digitising.

 

[stringer]

I just looked it up I see now how it's done. Idk if I want to do that, I don't see a need. Is it gonna sound better?

It actually does sounds better. My 45 collection is very very dirty. I usually only buy bulk lots in very crappy condition. Even more surface noise, clicks, and pops than usual. By digitizing I can run the music through software that gets rid of clicks, pops, and surface noise. And I can play my entire collection without ever having to change a record or change the speed on my turntable. I really enjoy playing LPs but 45s kind of suck since there's only one song on each side.

 

[somebodyelse]

No, it is not going to sound better.

There's a chunk of 'it depends' for that one, notably around mechanical feedback from speakers to stylus. And @stringer's point about postprocessing if you don't have somehing like the Waxwing to do it live.

 

[Deltaman]

I'm not gonna do it. My albums aren't anything special and all of them can be streamed. I'm still on the fence what sounds better. I use a Yamaha GT 2000 and an AT 33sa is me best cart.

 

[antcollinet]

There's a chunk of 'it depends' for that one, notably around mechanical feedback from speakers to stylus. And @stringer's point about postprocessing if you don't have somehing like the Waxwing to do it live.

Mechanical feedback though is just as likely to be baked into the recording, unless recorded with speakers muted. Plus - if you are happy with your vinyl setup, then mechanical feedback is presumably not an issue.

 

[Petrushka]

It actually does sounds better. My 45 collection is very very dirty. I usually only buy bulk lots in very crappy condition. Even more surface noise, clicks, and pops than usual. By digitizing I can run the music through software that gets rid of clicks, pops, and surface noise. And I can play my entire collection without ever having to change a record or change the speed on my turntable. I really enjoy playing LPs but 45s kind of suck since there's only one song on each side.

I’ve been buying crappy LPs for decades, and they are remarkably good after cleaning. Best to thoroughly clean, and reserve software for touch-up. This is what cleaning can do.