Recommendations for Reference-Quality Vinyl Cartridges?

[yourmom210]

Can anybody recommend any good reference-quality vinyl cartridges? Hoping to start up a vinyl digital archiving project with the goal of producing reference-quality files for material unavailable on streaming platforms (old Tejano and Chicano soul records, cool rare shit, etc.). I used to DJ with a set of Shure SC35Cs (for which I still have a set of replacement styli) but some research has shown those wouldn't be best for what I'm looking for. Looking for flattest frequency response possible, least distortion, and all other qualities I'd need for this project.

Affordability is a consideration, as my pockets only go so deep.

Also, if there are any DJ-style cartridges out there that would work, that'd be a plus, too, as recording audiophile-grade mixtapes would be tight. Otherwise, I understand I'd probably be better off w hifi cartridges?

Any other thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

ICIM, they'd be going on a set of Reloop RP-6000s hooked up to some Fosi X5 preamps

Appreciate y'all

 

[mglobe]

There's an extensive thread documenting measurements on a lot of different cartridges. The TLDR in my opinion is that the Shure V15 Type V remains the state of the art. This would be worth a good, albeit looong read.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...he-phono-cartridge-measurement-library.46108/

 

[DVDdoug]

But Shure doesn't make cartridges anymore.

Audio Technica seems to have a good reputation at reasonable prices.

Looking for flattest frequency response possible,

I don't know but you can tweak it with tone controls & EQ. Back in the analog days I was always upgrading or wanting to upgrade, although I knew the real problems was the records, because there were a few "good sounding" records.

The capacitance of the load (the wiring in the turntable, the wiring to the preamp, and the preamp's input) also affect frequency response. There is an optimum, Lower isn't necessarily better and we usually don't know how what they all add-up to. And the preamp may have 'imperfect RIAA EQ.

So... I just recommend equalizing by-ear, and different records may need different adjustments.

least distortion,

There are some "hard to track" records, but again the biggest problem is usually the records.

as recording audiophile-grade mixtapes would be tight.

Of course if you are going to "scratch" or crossfade "live" you'll need a mixer. If you just want to crossfade between songs, Audacity (or any audio editor) can do that after recording.

For digitizing, you'll need computer with a regular soundcard and a line input (usually color coded blue). If you have a laptop with only mic-in and headphone-out, you'll need a USB audio interface with line-in. The Behringer USA202 is popular and inexpensive and they make a similar UFO202 which has a switchable line/phono input. I have an ART USB phono plus (about $100 USD) which has switchable line/phono inputs and it has a recording level knob, which can be handy. Or there are lots of higher-end audio interfaces with switchable mic/line inputs. Or there are some mixers with USB ports

 

[Bland_username42069]

At the start just use whatever cartridge you’ve got. Audio technica, ortofon, nagaoka - they are all good. You’ll be fine with elliptical for old 45s

Learn how to set cartridge up as tight as possible with a test record.

If it’s independent 45s then the biggest issue might be being pressed off centre so if they are jukebox format / big centre hole 45s you can use modify the adapters to compensate.

If they are spindle size then people file them out to compensate for eccentric pressing but I’m not really a fan of filing the record so that’s up to you there.

Next is learning to use the noise reduction and repair software to clean up the file.

If you’re doing archive work then don’t use the records for back cueing and mix tapes. Sooner or later you’ll end up with cue burn and trying to fix that is a pain. Just mix them in serrato or whatever people use these days

Obviously they are your records tho so if you want to do mix with them go for it!

 

[mglobe]

But Shure doesn't make cartridges anymore.

Audio Technica seems to have a good reputation at reasonable prices.


I don't know but you can tweak it with tone controls & EQ. Back in the analog days I was always upgrading or wanting to upgrade, although I knew the real problems was the records, because there were a few "good sounding" records.

The capacitance of the load (the wiring in the turntable, the wiring to the preamp, and the preamp's input) also affect frequency response. There is an optimum, Lower isn't necessarily better and we usually don't know how what they all add-up to. And the preamp may have 'imperfect RIAA EQ.

So... I just recommend equalizing by-ear, and different records may need different adjustments.


There are some "hard to track" records, but again the biggest problem is usually the records.


Of course if you are going to "scratch" or crossfade "live" you'll need a mixer. If you just want to crossfade between songs, Audacity (or any audio editor) can do that after recording.

For digitizing, you'll need computer with a regular soundcard and a line input (usually color coded blue). If you have a laptop with only mic-in and headphone-out, you'll need a USB audio interface with line-in. The Behringer USA202 is popular and inexpensive and they make a similar UFO202 which has a switchable line/phono input. I have an ART USB phono plus (about $100 USD) which has switchable line/phono inputs and it has a recording level knob, which can be handy. Or there are lots of higher-end audio interfaces with switchable mic/line inputs. Or there are some mixers with USB ports

I mentioned the V15 because it I think makes the point that things have not really progressed since then wrt cartridges. The V15’s are available on the used market, and there are good, new replacement stylus options available for them. But you are correct that there are some good options from AT, and others. I have an Ortofon 2m Black that I measured and contributed to the thread that tested quite well, though it’s not cheap.

 

[lini]

AT-VM95ML might fit the bill.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[yourmom210]

But Shure doesn't make cartridges anymore.

Audio Technica seems to have a good reputation at reasonable prices.


I don't know but you can tweak it with tone controls & EQ. Back in the analog days I was always upgrading or wanting to upgrade, although I knew the real problems was the records, because there were a few "good sounding" records.

The capacitance of the load (the wiring in the turntable, the wiring to the preamp, and the preamp's input) also affect frequency response. There is an optimum, Lower isn't necessarily better and we usually don't know how what they all add-up to. And the preamp may have 'imperfect RIAA EQ.

So... I just recommend equalizing by-ear, and different records may need different adjustments.


There are some "hard to track" records, but again the biggest problem is usually the records.


Of course if you are going to "scratch" or crossfade "live" you'll need a mixer. If you just want to crossfade between songs, Audacity (or any audio editor) can do that after recording.

For digitizing, you'll need computer with a regular soundcard and a line input (usually color coded blue). If you have a laptop with only mic-in and headphone-out, you'll need a USB audio interface with line-in. The Behringer USA202 is popular and inexpensive and they make a similar UFO202 which has a switchable line/phono input. I have an ART USB phono plus (about $100 USD) which has switchable line/phono inputs and it has a recording level knob, which can be handy. Or there are lots of higher-end audio interfaces with switchable mic/line inputs. Or there are some mixers with USB ports

Oh yeah I’m not really concerned about the audio quality of the pressings themselves, it’s take what you get w a lot of the older stuff, plenty of which sounds sounds like shit! But is hugely important. Small local/regional labels from the 50s, 60s, etc. My goal is to present them true to form (as captured in the pressing) for myself and others interested, to have as close to reference-level material as possible. So I’m trying to avoid EQ and any other post-processing other than maybe some anti-noise work.

 

[Chrispy]

I'd just move beyond the vinyl. Too bad Shure still isn't in the biz, tho, had most of my best experiences with them.

 

[yourmom210]

At the start just use whatever cartridge you’ve got. Audio technica, ortofon, nagaoka - they are all good. You’ll be fine with elliptical for old 45s

Learn how to set cartridge up as tight as possible with a test record.

If it’s independent 45s then the biggest issue might be being pressed off centre so if they are jukebox format / big centre hole 45s you can use modify the adapters to compensate.

If they are spindle size then people file them out to compensate for eccentric pressing but I’m not really a fan of filing the record so that’s up to you there.

Next is learning to use the noise reduction and repair software to clean up the file.

If you’re doing archive work then don’t use the records for back cueing and mix tapes. Sooner or later you’ll end up with cue burn and trying to fix that is a pain. Just mix them in serrato or whatever people use these days

Obviously they are your records tho so if you want to do mix with them go for it!

Thanks. I have an existing setup, but just concerned it won’t produce what I’m looking for. I’ve recorded plenty in the past already but want to do these old cats and their fans justice. Sound is just alright w my Shures. Some cool digital archiving projects exist, like the Arhoolie collection out of California, but their material don’t sound the best (putting it nicely! ) and I want an output (and level of accessibility, but that’s another topic) that folks can appreciate

 

[yourmom210]

I'd just move beyond the vinyl. Too bad Shure still isn't in the biz, tho, had most of my best experiences with them.

That’s what I’m trying to do the leg work for haha. Lot of those old masters are gone/lost so not many other options

And yeah, I was really sad about that. Lucked out and copped a set of replacement styli soon as they went out of production

 

[EERecordist]

The Shure V15 and the Stanton 681 A or EEE were popular back in the day.

 

[somebodyelse]

I don't think we've seen tests of the SC35C with either Jico stylus, but Jico's V15 replacements have measured well.
https://www.jico-stylus.com/cartridge-number/sc35c/

People have mentioned tuning input loading for flat response with MM, but the X5 doesn't have adjustment for that so you would need to use one of the inline options. An alternative is to measure frequency response (measurement script thread) then apply EQ digitally after recording.

 

[sergeauckland]

I would make two suggestions:-

The V15V with SAS stylus has the benefit of superb tracking although is very sensitive to loading. Probably the best, i.e. easiest to get good results, is to apply digital EQ using a good test record. Finding a good test record will be another challenge!

The second suggestion is to use a good moving coil cartridge like the AT33 with a line-contact stylus. This is likely to have a flatter frequency response and perhaps lower distortion, but would also benefit from further EQ.

Whether MM or MC, I think the important part is to use a line contact stylus as that should provide the lowest distortion, and has the benefit that assuming old, and possibly worn LPs, the line contact should bridge the worn part and result in a lot lower noise.

One further thought is that when archiving LPs, cleaning them with a vacuum Record Cleaning Machine, with or without preceding that with an ultrasonic cleaner, I think is essential to remove accumulated dirt. Even with brand new LPs, I like to clean them first to remove factory dust and mould-release agent.

S.

 

[Newman]

Can anybody recommend any good reference-quality vinyl cartridges? Hoping to start up a vinyl digital archiving project with the goal of producing reference-quality files for material unavailable on streaming platforms (old Tejano and Chicano soul records, cool rare shit, etc.). I used to DJ with a set of Shure SC35Cs (for which I still have a set of replacement styli) but some research has shown those wouldn't be best for what I'm looking for. Looking for flattest frequency response possible, least distortion, and all other qualities I'd need for this project.

Affordability is a consideration, as my pockets only go so deep.

Also, if there are any DJ-style cartridges out there that would work, that'd be a plus, too, as recording audiophile-grade mixtapes would be tight. Otherwise, I understand I'd probably be better off w hifi cartridges?

Any other thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

ICIM, they'd be going on a set of Reloop RP-6000s hooked up to some Fosi X5 preamps

Appreciate y'all

Hi there

I'm not sure if my thoughts will fit in with your plan, but here they are.

I suggest a micro line or similar line contact stylus profile, to trace the grooves in your records most accurately.

I suggest a new cartridge, not used. You can never be sure that a used cartridge is performing to its new specifications.

I suggest a moving coil cartridge because they are immune to things like cable capacitance, that can so easily muck up the frequency response of a moving magnet cartridge.

A less expensive cartridge meeting this description would be the Audio Technica OC-9 ML model. We also have a frequency response measurement for this model, link.

Cheers

 

[Bland_username42069]

Thanks. I have an existing setup, but just concerned it won’t produce what I’m looking for. I’ve recorded plenty in the past already but want to do these old cats and their fans justice. Sound is just alright w my Shures. Some cool digital archiving projects exist, like the Arhoolie collection out of California, but their material don’t sound the best (putting it nicely! ) and I want an output (and level of accessibility, but that’s another topic) that folks can appreciate

Your biggest issues will be off centre, rough pressings, “eccentric” recording techniques, groove damage, scratches, warp, and dirt in grooves.

Those will be biggest determinants of your recording quality for indie and private press 45s.

Then will come your software restoration skills (and often patience and time)

The cartridge is least of your worries - you just want something that tracks well and most likely an elliptical or even a conical - audio Technica is probably best bet if you can’t find a shure series V

personally I wouldn’t use microline stylus on these types of records. There is a high probability they have groove damage, scratches, poor pressing quality etc

If they are top shape you could definitely use micro line but if they are a bit rough I find elliptical or even conical is better at controlling surface noise which makes restoring them far easier and less destructive than trying to remove more noise in software.

That’s my experience from poorly pressed / rough 45s used at parties but you will know the condition.

It’s a trade off between condition of record vs surface noise vs detail with regards to stylus shape.

Ideally you’d have a conical, elliptical and micro line stylus and use on a case by case basis.

 

[Multicore]

What does "reference quality" mean in record player pickups? What is the reference used for?

 

[Newman]

personally I wouldn’t use microline stylus on these types of records. There is a high probability they have groove damage, scratches, poor pressing quality etc

I think you will find that such groove damage is often caused by playing on cheap cartridges that tend to have conical or elliptical styli, and that a micro line archiving cartridge will trace a different part of the groove where it is less damaged.

Cheers

 

[digitalfrost]

Personally I'm a big fan of the Audio Technica Microline stylii. I had AT33PTG/II before which was great, but I broke it. I bought a AT-VM95ML to tide me over, but in the end I kept it because for the money it's just too good. While I do not have a measurement of the cartridge, I recorded an album that I also own as digital file and compared the frequency responses. Here is the The Sword - Warp Riders 15th Anniversary Edition:

Top is peak power, lower is average power. As you can see the digital version and the vinyl align almost perfectly from 1khz up.

 

[DVinylfan]

Can anybody recommend any good reference-quality vinyl cartridges? Hoping to start up a vinyl digital archiving project with the goal of producing reference-quality files for material unavailable on streaming platforms (old Tejano and Chicano soul records, cool rare shit, etc.). I used to DJ with a set of Shure SC35Cs (for which I still have a set of replacement styli) but some research has shown those wouldn't be best for what I'm looking for. Looking for flattest frequency response possible, least distortion, and all other qualities I'd need for this project.

Affordability is a consideration, as my pockets only go so deep.

Also, if there are any DJ-style cartridges out there that would work, that'd be a plus, too, as recording audiophile-grade mixtapes would be tight. Otherwise, I understand I'd probably be better off w hifi cartridges?

Any other thoughts and advice would be appreciated.

ICIM, they'd be going on a set of Reloop RP-6000s hooked up to some Fosi X5 preamps

Appreciate y'all

Denon DL103.
Designed for broadcast use to play records of the era you describe.
The round stylus may be more forgiving than other profiles of the likely playback issues others have mentioned here.
In MC terms, it's affordable.

Denon dl103 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[mike70]

Audio Technica is the actual price / performance champion ... by far.
The vm95ml it's awesome, and the new 700 series with microline stylus, metallic body and boron cantilever at 350 USD ... that's simply a steal.
Check it out.