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Can a phono pre make so much difference to surface noise?

You can skin this cat with overhead, or with fast recovery. For the event itself the data is already lost, so it’s not necessary to reproduce garbage with exacting fidelity - you just don’t want a lingering ill-effect.
 
Richard G said:
When were they made?
Click to expand...
Late 1970s, when impulse noise reduction systems were (transiently*) popular.

According to the wisdom of the era, the Garrard MRM shown above has been held in some esteem as a better-than-average MM phono preamp, irrespective of its... umm... powers. ;) I have never actually tried this one, though, truth be told. It's on the one of these days projects list. :p

1719866944636.jpeg


EDIT: If you happen to have actual interest in the topic of paleo-NR ;) you might want to take a look at this column that ran in Audio in July 1978.

full article starts on pg. 108 of https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Audio/70s/Audio-1978-07.pdf
________________
* pun oh-so-intended. :cool::facepalm:
 
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Repeated playings with ML/MR styli will do a pretty good job cleaning the groove, taming even fairly loud pops/ticks, sometimes even better than you can achieve with record cleaning equipment.

I clean surface dust from records with an Audio Technica 6012 spritzed with 50% isopropanol before play. If I stop playing a record halfway through, then rake the record with a flashlight (imagine the record and flashlight are both sitting on the same surface with the light shining across the record), you can see where the stylus has dug stuff out of the groove right up to the point you stopped play, and the rest of the record is clean.

Interestingly, records that were never wet cleaned rarely have much dirt in the groove to dig out. Records that were cleaning by the previous owner by God only knows what method often are the worst.

I pre-cleann previously cleaned records. Records that were only ever played and never washed don't tend to need it.
 
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Even though it would be out of the scope of OP's concerns...

My posts linked below would be your reference and interest, I assume;

- Inside of Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 phono preamplifier, and successful DIY suppression of inaudible EMF (electro-magnetic field) interference noise: #697

- Revival of analog LP player (MC cartridge) in my DSP multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo system for real time on-the-fly vinyl LP listening (and digital recording, if needed): #688

- Summary of my motivations reviving vinyl TT (turntable) in DSP-based multichannel time-aligned multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio setup: #758, #1,262(remote thread)
 
Hardware is primitive compared to software. I’ve digitized several hundred records.

I made my own vaccuum record cleaner.



Then, after digitizing the record, I used SoundForge to remove remaining noise without trimming high frequencies. It can sample the noise on silent groves and subtract it from the entire file. It can remove crackle without limiting high frequencies.

It has half a dozen tools for repairing clips, pops and damage.
 
Petrushka said:
Hardware is primitive compared to software. I’ve digitized several hundred records.

I made my own vaccuum record cleaner.



Then, after digitizing the record, I used SoundForge to remove remaining noise without trimming high frequencies. It can sample the noise on silent groves and subtract it from the entire file. It can remove crackle without limiting high frequencies.

It has half a dozen tools for repairing clips, pops and damage.
Click to expand...

I did almost the same; about 15 years ago. I have digitized almost all of my around 300 LPs (ref. my post #535 on my project thread) . It was time-consuming hard work, indeed.

As wrote in my post #758 there, however, the vinyl LPs are still sitting on my shelves upstairs in perfect conditions. Only if needed, of course I can bring any of them onto my revived TT for "vinyl ceremonies".:D
 
mhardy6647 said:
As long as I am wasting forum bandwidth on abstruse and obsolete technology :facepalm: -- one may find reviews of the aforementioned Garrard "MRM-101" in the following massmarket hifi hobby publications:
https://www.worldradiohistory.com/A...e-High-Fidelity/70s/High-Fidelity-1978-03.pdf pp 53-54.
and
https://www.worldradiohistory.com/A...iFI-Stereo/70s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1978-06.pdf pp 54, 56.

:cool:
Click to expand...

The March 1978 issue is amazing. There's even a review of the Sex Pistols' "Never Mind the Bollocks".

Multiply all prices times 5 for approximate 2024 values.
 
cgallery said:
Repeated playings with ML/MR styli will do a pretty good job cleaning the groove, taming even fairly loud pops/ticks, sometimes even better than you can achieve with record cleaning equipment.

I clean surface dust from records with an Audio Technica 6012 spritzed with 50% isopropanol before play. If I stop playing a record halfway through, then rake the record with a flashlight (imagine the record and flashlight are both sitting on the same surface with the light shining across the record), you can see where the stylus has dug stuff out of the groove right up to the point you stopped play, and the rest of the record is clean.

Interestingly, records that were never wet cleaned rarely have much dirt in the groove to dig out. Records that were cleaning by the previous owner by God only knows what method often are the worst.

I pre-cleann previously cleaned records. Records that were only ever played and never washed don't tend to need it.
Click to expand...

Pardon my ignorance but what are ML or MR styli?
 
Petrushka said:
Hardware is primitive compared to software. I’ve digitized several hundred records.

I made my own vaccuum record cleaner.



Then, after digitizing the record, I used SoundForge to remove remaining noise without trimming high frequencies. It can sample the noise on silent groves and subtract it from the entire file. It can remove crackle without limiting high frequencies.

It has half a dozen tools for repairing clips, pops and damage.
Click to expand...

A ** great ** set-up … ( as asked a few times in comments on the YouTube link) -

Can you please tell us what parts you use – especially
- the fitting which runs across the vinyl. vacuum cleaner attachment/ a series of holes you drilled in a vacuum cleaner attachment
- what it connects to that is mounted on the side and directs what’s sucked in down at a right angle

Much appreciated
 
cgallery said:
Repeated playings with ML/MR styli will do a pretty good job cleaning the groove, taming even fairly loud pops/ticks, sometimes even better than you can achieve with record cleaning equipment.

I clean surface dust from records with an Audio Technica 6012 spritzed with 50% isopropanol before play. If I stop playing a record halfway through, then rake the record with a flashlight (imagine the record and flashlight are both sitting on the same surface with the light shining across the record), you can see where the stylus has dug stuff out of the groove right up to the point you stopped play, and the rest of the record is clean.

Interestingly, records that were never wet cleaned rarely have much dirt in the groove to dig out. Records that were cleaning by the previous owner by God only knows what method often are the worst.

I pre-cleann previously cleaned records. Records that were only ever played and never washed don't tend to need it.
Click to expand...
I bought probably 900 records at garage sales. When I started digitizing my collection, many were 50 years old or older. Some were dull from tobacco smoke. Most looked terrible. After one session with my homemade vaccuum machine they sounded almost like new. All of them. There were occasional damaged spots that required the attention of software, but the cleaner cured clicks, pops ams crackle. Surprisingly, using a modern hyperellptical stylus also eliminated distortion from wear.

These were records I paid maybe 50 cents for. Most of what I bought never made it to CD. some have subsequently made it to Spotify. Most were classical.

I have visual proof of what vacuum cleaning can do for abused records. I wouldn’t use it on new ones, not because of residue, but because the alcohol leeches out the plasticizer. One time is not particularly harmful, but over many uses it would be harmful.
 
Richard G said:
A ** great ** set-up … ( as asked a few times in comments on the YouTube link) -

Can you please tell us what parts you use – especially
- the fitting which runs across the vinyl. vacuum cleaner attachment/ a series of holes you drilled in a vacuum cleaner attachment
- what it connects to that is mounted on the side and directs what’s sucked in down at a right angle

Much appreciated
Click to expand...
I still have and use my working prototype and some leftover parts. The wand was my invention. I sold about 30 of them on ebay, with no complaints (but one, that was defective). I gave it up because I was making about $5 an hour making them.

If you are patient I will drag out the parts and photograph them. Give me a few days.

The wand was my invention, my one stroke of genius. Nothing touches the groove surface, and there are no brushes to replace or clean. And it allows you to use a shop vac having much greater suction than competitive cleaners.
 
Petrushka said:
I still have and use my working prototype and some leftover parts. The wand was my invention. I sold about 30 of them on ebay, with no complaints (but one, that was defective). I gave it up because I was making about $5 an hour making them.

If you are patient I will drag out the parts and photograph them. Give me a few days.

The wand was my invention, my one stroke of genius. Nothing touches the groove surface, and there are no brushes to replace or clean. And it allows you to use a shop vac having much greater suction than competitive cleaners.
Click to expand...

That would be great! (No hurry … when you have a little time)

Cheers
 
Petrushka said:
I bought probably 900 records at garage sales. When I started digitizing my collection, many were 50 years old or older. Some were dull from tobacco smoke. Most looked terrible. After one session with my homemade vaccuum machine they sounded almost like new. All of them. There were occasional damaged spots that required the attention of software, but the cleaner cured clicks, pops ams crackle. Surprisingly, using a modern hyperellptical stylus also eliminated distortion from wear.

These were records I paid maybe 50 cents for. Most of what I bought never made it to CD. some have subsequently made it to Spotify. Most were classical.

I have visual proof of what vacuum cleaning can do for abused records. I wouldn’t use it on new ones, not because of residue, but because the alcohol leeches out the plasticizer. One time is not particularly harmful, but over many uses it would be harmful.
Click to expand...

Alcohol doesn't remove plasticiser from vinyl records.
 
I have some fairly strong opinions about vinyl, based on hundreds of hours extracting the sound from records, and attempting to clean them up.

One opinion is the fundamental reason vinylphiles think records sound better than digital is that records are mastered differently and do in fact sound different. I’m pretty sure that is an established fact.

A personal opinion is that that records are different because they are noisy, and that is not entirely bad. SoundForge can remove crackle, hiss, rumble, even the sound of the HVAC. (That is audible in many old recordings.) The aggressiveness of noise reduction can be adjusted. I found by trial and error, that I preferred to leave a trace of high frequency noise, even though the filter did not actually attenuate the frequency response. I think there’s some experimental evidence supporting this.

My observation is that vinyl is much tougher than its reputation suggests. Old, abused records can be resurrected. Modern needles track higher in the groove, and wear distortion is minimal.

My personal opinion is that when vinyl is converted to digital with some care, nothing worthwhile is lost. Whatever made the record different from the CD is preserved. Also, with software, remastering is subtle or aggressive as you want it to be.

Final observation: defects like clicks and pops, when viewed in an editor, are remarkably brief, on the order of a millisecond, and can be transparently healed. Most can be healed by copying the good channel to the bad one.
 
I mentioned that I paid practically nothing for most of my records. I was laid off after 911, and had no money and a lot of free time. My experiments in record cleaning were done just to see what the limits were.

Some of the records smelled strongly of tobacco smoke. They were unplayable before cleaning. A few of them resisted my safe cleaning formula, and I tried household cleaners, like undiluted Windex. They not only survived, they played well enough to use and keep.

Before I made the vacuum device, my experiments with wet cleaning left residue. Sometimes it made things worse.
 
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