Michael Fidler Spartan 20 Phono Stage Review

[Michael Fidler]

well, i thought about a cheaper balanced MM preamp ... like in the 500 USD price tag ... maybe without the crossfeed, etc.

Maybe I can economise a bit when it moves to SMD

 

[mike70]

Maybe I can economise a bit when it moves to SMD

that's great, you have a very good basic MM platform, maybe it's "underutilized" without a middle tier product, i mean, the step to the PRO is high.

My opinion with my higher respect, obviously.

 

[abrcdbra]

Maybe I can economise a bit when it moves to SMD

Maybe I can economise a bit when it moves to SMD

Yeah, right.) Go over there! It's a shame to use OPAMP, which is forty years old and costs 30 cents in Chinese retail)
It's not suitable for MM at all, I hope you understand that)

And finally replace polypropylene with polystyrene)

 

[undeakyetonde]

Yeah, right.) Go over there! It's a shame to use OPAMP, which is forty years old and costs 30 cents in Chinese retail)
It's not suitable for MM at all, I hope you understand that)

If you think this is not suitable, maybe you would share your understanding why, and what you think is suitable

Otherwise this is just hostile noise with no content

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

It's not suitable for MM at all, I hope you understand that

Could you illuminate us what is more suitable (make and model of MM+MC preamp) and how much does it cost?

 

[sq225917]

Err, it does use styrene caps for the riaa,that's what the black lcr box caps are.

 

[Michael Fidler]

Yeah, right.) Go over there! It's a shame to use OPAMP, which is forty years old and costs 30 cents in Chinese retail)
It's not suitable for MM at all, I hope you understand that)

And finally replace polypropylene with polystyrene)

Suitability is as suitability does - thanks for bumping the thread for me!

 

[Michael Fidler]

Err, it does use styrene caps for the riaa,that's what the black lcr box caps are.

These are actually being phased out of the designs now, as C0G are proving to have better temperature stability and less liable to drift during soldering

 

[WisEd]

Thanks for the review.
I will never understand why people prefer MC over MM.
Don't all these measured Phono stages perform better with MM?
Don't we want better SINAD at all times?
There is some gap in my knowledge or I am missing something

Thanks for the review.
I will never understand why people prefer MC over MM.
Don't all these measured Phono stages perform better with MM?
Don't we want better SINAD at all times?
There is some gap in my knowledge or I am missing something surely.

Lest we forget, this is not a test of moving coil vs MM. Itxs a preamplifier test. Moving coil cartridges in general have extended frequency response abd greatly improved transient response compared to moving magenets. Most moving magnets roll off after 16k while moving coils extend past 20k. They also, for a reason, I don't technically understand (since they both offer the same stylus profiles) transmit less surface noise. So regardless of pre amp specs, moving coils offer readily noticeable improvement is sound quality in all respects. Of course they have several disadvantages, initial price, non-replaceable stylus, and a matching preamp. All of which translates to a significant increase in costs. However the difference in sound quality are very significant, particularly if you have a very revealing setup and very good vynil. Obviously, if you are just dabbling with vynil, it's not a good nor necessary choice but if you're a true vynil afficionado and wan,t to really enjoy what vynil can offer it's the obvious choice. Better yet, Ortofon has introduced anew line of MCsn the MC X that starts at kess than 500 dollars!

 

[WisEd]

This is why I like ASR. This is fine component at a reasonable price. I'm sure it outclasses other "audiophile" pre's costing many fold times the price.

 

[somebodyelse]

Lest we forget, this is not a test of moving coil vs MM. Itxs a preamplifier test. Moving coil cartridges in general have extended frequency response abd greatly improved transient response compared to moving magenets. Most moving magnets roll off after 16k while moving coils extend past 20k. They also, for a reason, I don't technically understand (since they both offer the same stylus profiles) transmit less surface noise. So regardless of pre amp specs, moving coils offer readily noticeable improvement is sound quality in all respects. Of course they have several disadvantages, initial price, non-replaceable stylus, and a matching preamp. All of which translates to a significant increase in costs. However the difference in sound quality are very significant, particularly if you have a very revealing setup and very good vynil. Obviously, if you are just dabbling with vynil, it's not a good nor necessary choice but if you're a true vynil afficionado and wan,t to really enjoy what vynil can offer it's the obvious choice. Better yet, Ortofon has introduced anew line of MCsn the MC X that starts at kess than 500 dollars!

There's a thread for discussing the merits of MM vs. MC with evidence rather than generalisations. It would be better to take such discussion there rather than this review thread. See also Toole's blind cartridge comparison and measurements from the cartridge measurement library.

 

[polmuaddib]

Lest we forget, this is not a test of moving coil vs MM. Itxs a preamplifier test. Moving coil cartridges in general have extended frequency response abd greatly improved transient response compared to moving magenets. Most moving magnets roll off after 16k while moving coils extend past 20k. They also, for a reason, I don't technically understand (since they both offer the same stylus profiles) transmit less surface noise. So regardless of pre amp specs, moving coils offer readily noticeable improvement is sound quality in all respects. Of course they have several disadvantages, initial price, non-replaceable stylus, and a matching preamp. All of which translates to a significant increase in costs. However the difference in sound quality are very significant, particularly if you have a very revealing setup and very good vynil. Obviously, if you are just dabbling with vynil, it's not a good nor necessary choice but if you're a true vynil afficionado and wan,t to really enjoy what vynil can offer it's the obvious choice. Better yet, Ortofon has introduced anew line of MCsn the MC X that starts at kess than 500 dollars!

I have to say, in advance, that I have very little knowledge of Cartridge and stylus technology. I am sentimentally bound to vinyl, and I stil buy some from time to time, even though I don’t listen to it. I just hate the noise and cracks and occasional distortion.
But, please, don’t insult me with the phrase that some have revealing system and some don’t. This is a classic audiophile misconception and logical fallacy which they use to argue anyone who disagrees.
I would love to take your advice that MC has less noise and cracks and it would be appealing to me, make me, turn on my turntable and spin some records again.
But if all the phono preamps measure better in MM then MC, and MC cartridges are supposedly better, why don’t they make MC preamps better?

 

[WisEd]

Not everything that audiophiles say is misconception nor should you feel insulted. There are obviously more and less revealing systems.
In fact thats why ASR exists . In particular there are speakers that are pretty darned bad and thus unrevealing in every respect and some that are very revealing. What seem to give you offense I guess, is price. Well, there is expesive junk and cheap junk too! Like a 30 dollar Fosi Box 1.Thats what testing does! separate the revealing vs the unrevealing regardless of its price.

 

[sq225917]

"Drift during soldering"

Wax candles are easier to solder....

 

[Michael Fidler]

"Drift during soldering"

Wax candles are easier to solder....

At least we're not still stuck in the days of germanium transistors, where you had to ratchet pliers onto the component legs upstream of the solder joint to stop the junction disintegrating each time you made a joint!

 

[polmuaddib]

I find insulting that you use cheap argument as revealing system. What is a revealing system? An expensive system? I have very expensive system. A wide dynamic range, distortion free, flat frequency response system? Have that, as well, while not perfect, then more than good enough. Can I afford MC cartridge, capable preamp and all that goes with it? Sure I can.

You are making unnecessary assumptions.
And you misunderstand me, also. I am like agent Fox Mulder. I want to believe. I would love to buy some MC and spin some records and enjoy them. I just fear that it will not be any better then the two MM cartridges I already own and that I will, finally, just throw some money for the sound that is inferior to my Flac, whether redbook or hires.

In a way, I torture myself by reading these vinyl threads, because I want to like records, because I enjoyed them as a kid, but I am sensitive to noise and distortion they bring.

And honestly, I am not really insulted, I just don’t like the revealing system argument because it’s lazy.

Cheers.

 

[WisEd]

I find insulting that you use cheap argument as revealing system. What is a revealing system? An expensive system? I have very expensive system. A wide dynamic range, distortion free, flat frequency response system? Have that, as well, while not perfect, then more than good enough. Can I afford MC cartridge, capable preamp and all that goes with it? Sure I can.

You are making unnecessary assumptions.
And you misunderstand me, also. I am like agent Fox Mulder. I want to believe. I would love to buy some MC and spin some records and enjoy them. I just fear that it will not be any better then the two MM cartridges I already own and that I will, finally, just throw some money for the sound that is inferior to my Flac, whether redbook or hires.

In a way, I torture myself by reading these vinyl threads, because I want to like records, because I enjoyed them as a kid, but I am sensitive to noise and distortion they bring.

And honestly, I am not really insulted, I just don’t like the revealing system argument because it’s lazy.

Cheers.

At no time was price mentioned as a determinin factor. You put that in yourself.With digital sources you can build a revealing setup fairly economically yet, ask Amir how much his refference headphones cost.....4K! so you can buy a 500 bucks superb streamr/ DAC for the cheap and get superb audio quality, but to do critical evaluation's you still need those additional 4k!
Now lets get to analog.... You need an amp/pre combo that has no more than 0.01 THD, you need speakers that can go from 20-20k with a reasonably flat frequency response of around +/- 3dB. Lest we forget the amp should be able to drive those full range speakers without distorting to around 105dB continously. You need a turntable with a wow and flutter of less than .05 percent and a rumble of no higher than -75dB or so. That is a "revealing" though not yet "refference" analog set up. Go ahead find the parts, match them up. and then get back to me about the price.
Lest we forget, for headphones to accurately provide 20-20K flat response...the going rate is 4k! I'm anxiously waiting for your great inexpensive speakers that can do that feat for less than triple that price!
So, the fact is there are more "revealing" setups however, almost invariably they cost more. On the other hand spending senselessly based on the bikieg that price is a guarantee of quality is plain dumb.

 

[polmuaddib]

You literally mentioned price first. Then you misread my post and think that I said I had inexpensive speakers.
Anyway, this discussion is going nowhere. I have no interest in quarrel.

What seem to give you offense I guess, is price.

 

[Bland_username42069]

At no time was price mentioned as a determinin factor. You put that in yourself.With digital sources you can build a revealing setup fairly economically yet, ask Amir how much his refference headphones cost.....4K! so you can buy a 500 bucks superb streamr/ DAC for the cheap and get superb audio quality, but to do critical evaluation's you still need those additional 4k!
Now lets get to analog.... You need an amp/pre combo that has no more than 0.01 THD, you need speakers that can go from 20-20k with a reasonably flat frequency response of around +/- 3dB. Lest we forget the amp should be able to drive those full range speakers without distorting to around 105dB continously. You need a turntable with a wow and flutter of less than .05 percent and a rumble of no higher than -75dB or so. That is a "revealing" though not yet "refference" analog set up. Go ahead find the parts, match them up. and then get back to me about the price.
Lest we forget, for headphones to accurately provide 20-20K flat response...the going rate is 4k! I'm anxiously waiting for your great inexpensive speakers that can do that feat for less than triple that price!
So, the fact is there are more "revealing" setups however, almost invariably they cost more. On the other hand spending senselessly based on the bikieg that price is a guarantee of quality is plain dumb.

Fosi could do you a phono stage and amp combo that meets those requirements for under $300.
Or you could buy one of Michael’s stages with all the extra features and $100 amp that would give you top tier sound.

A decent secondhand technics deck from the 80s meets all the wow/flutter and rumble requirements - so another $100-200 there.

You could do all of that for $500 quite easily.

Two nice bookshelfs and a subwoofer and all your requirements are met for a very high end system

 

[mike70]

In a way, I torture myself by reading these vinyl threads, because I want to like records, because I enjoyed them as a kid, but I am sensitive to noise and distortion they bring.

@polmuaddib ... if you use the right cleaning process and a decent cartridge with a microline stylus, you won't listen to noise / distortion.
I use vinyl for more than 40 years, and a good manual cleaning (or an automated RCM if you are "lazy" or don´t want the hassle, even it's only for the first time) and a ML cartridge are blessings.

From my seat position, i don´t listen to any noise between tracks, IGD or whatever ... many people that comes to my audio room says "hey, nice CD ... what is it?"
Take it or left it, it's my real experience.