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Benchmark ABH2 Replacement

Non viable without substantial measurement instruments and analysis - most people don't have the gear nor the analytic experience.
I feel this acutely since I frequently find myself in this predicament. It doesn't matter though. The burden of proof doesn't change just because it's hard to prove. If the prosecution lacks evidence the defendant walks.

A subjective experience is still a valid data point.
A report of a subjective experience is valid with respect to that subjective experience. But when we know that cognitive bias is a huge confound, and the possible difference is very small, a sighted subjective experience tells us nothing about whether there would be audible differences under blind conditions.

The much-discussed Harman preference curves, are a collation of subjective data points.
Absolutely, the difference is that we don't know the confounding factors, and have no reason to think those confounding factors are large. It's possible that people think that they like more bass, and think that they like more treble, and maybe would have a different result if they were presented with different sound signatures to prefer rather than a dial that they could turn up or down. But that's rank speculation.

We're also talking about huge differences, with popular headphones often deviating over 10dB from each other at certain frequencies. So yes, I have no problem with Harman's preference research.

In the absence of reliable consistent testing at the extremes of speaker load levels, we remain subject to subjective evaluation..... it is our only available tool - our ears.
That's just not how it works. That opens up the door to all manner of specious claims, from fancy cables, to cable risers, to ethernet switches, to fuses, to repurposed radio shack clocks, to magical stones. These have all been marketed to improve audio performance, and they have all been purchased by satisfied customers who enjoyed the higher sonic fidelity they subjectively perceived. Pick the level at which you become incredulous.
 
A subjective experience is still a valid data point.
Absolutely, 100%, as long as there are ears-only controls.

(Insert my usual rant about the enstupidation caused by so many people misusing the term "subjective" to mean "uncontrolled")
 
Another example: Link

Btw, EPDR is not an issue for class-d.
That llink leads back to the same damping factor numbers referenced from stereo.de for the AHB2. They don't make sense even including the 1m of 1.5mm^2 wire. Do the calculations and see if you agree. Either Benchmark, Soundstage, Sterophile are all wrong, or Stereo.de made a mistake.
 
Burden of Proof? Really?

I didn’t post looking for approval or to prove anything. Over three years ago when buying a new system I came here for information about audio components and that led me to the Benchmark products which I purchased. They served me well for over three years. As I mentioned they are excellent products especially for the money. Then I decided to get into streaming. While searching and auditioning streamers I started listening to other DACs and amplifiers. In my opinion they sounded better than what I was experiencing at home. This led to eventually replacing my entire system. Since I started my journey over 3 years ago here on ASR I wanted to let you know that I found something better than what Benchmark offers but at a higher price point. That’s it. Not trying to convince you of anything only reporting on my experience. Whether you agree or believe me is not important as it doesn’t change what I am currently experiencing with my system.
 
Burden of Proof? Really?

I didn’t post looking for approval or to prove anything. Over three years ago when buying a new system I came here for information about audio components and that led me to the Benchmark products which I purchased. They served me well for over three years. As I mentioned they are excellent products especially for the money. Then I decided to get into streaming. While searching and auditioning streamers I started listening to other DACs and amplifiers. In my opinion they sounded better than what I was experiencing at home. This led to eventually replacing my entire system. Since I started my journey over 3 years ago here on ASR I wanted to let you know that I found something better than what Benchmark offers but at a higher price point. That’s it. Not trying to convince you of anything only reporting on my experience. Whether you agree or believe me is not important as it doesn’t change what I am currently experiencing with my system.
OK, I see. Cool, you were warming us up to say you had sent your Accuphase to Amir for testing! I get it now and can't wait. Should settle this defugalty once and for all!
 
A subjective experience is still a valid data point.
It can be a data point if it was made under controlled conditions but it is not conclusive.
The much-discussed Harman preference curves, are a collation of subjective data points.
It is a collation of subjective data points derived under controlled conditions. Big difference
 
@Joesax Congratulations on your beautiful Accuphase P-4600. A truly magnificent power amplifier from an excellent company. Japanese precision HiFi at its finest.

It is a vastly more capable amplifier than a single Benchmark AHB-2 and you will no doubt never need another amplifier.
 
I feel this acutely since I frequently find myself in this predicament. It doesn't matter though. The burden of proof doesn't change just because it's hard to prove. If the prosecution lacks evidence the defendant walks.


A report of a subjective experience is valid with respect to that subjective experience. But when we know that cognitive bias is a huge confound, and the possible difference is very small, a sighted subjective experience tells us nothing about whether there would be audible differences under blind conditions.


Absolutely, the difference is that we don't know the confounding factors, and have no reason to think those confounding factors are large. It's possible that people think that they like more bass, and think that they like more treble, and maybe would have a different result if they were presented with different sound signatures to prefer rather than a dial that they could turn up or down. But that's rank speculation.

We're also talking about huge differences, with popular headphones often deviating over 10dB from each other at certain frequencies. So yes, I have no problem with Harman's preference research.


That's just not how it works. That opens up the door to all manner of specious claims, from fancy cables, to cable risers, to ethernet switches, to fuses, to repurposed radio shack clocks, to magical stones. These have all been marketed to improve audio performance, and they have all been purchased by satisfied customers who enjoyed the higher sonic fidelity they subjectively perceived. Pick the level at which you become incredulous.
Pragmatically speaking - yes I have measurement microphones, and I have done some measurements to check for setup issues etc...

But I did subjective listening tests of my various amp options, including bridged vs standard, and bi-amped vs standard, as well as comparing several different AVR's and power amps.

It was a purely subjective comparison (although at some point I will possibly redo some the bi-amp tests and measure response to see whether I am extracting a few more low end Hz by doing that...) - and my conclusion was, that most differences were sufficiently slight that I could not discount bias / placebo/nocebo effect in my conclusions.

But in a couple of cases, the subjective response was sufficiently pronounced to convince me that there is definitely something going wrong with that configuration. Specifically with the Integra DRX3.4 running solo driving my 4ohm nominal / 1.6ohm minimum speakers.... when the same setup had one of several power amp options driving the mains... the problems went away... and the problems weren't there when using my older SR876 AVR or DTR70.4 (both of which are very substantial beasts, with much more power, and massive power supplies).

So I make my conclusions based on my experiences as anyone else does... and provide advice to others based on my experiences.

The trouble with measurement centricity - is the standard sets of measurements don't provide us with a mapped measurement to perception relationship.... there is no measurement that will tell you how a speaker will Image, or how realistic the reproduction of female voice will be with a given speaker.... we can measure distortion of various kinds, dispersion patterns... but ultimately we just don't have a really good set of measures that tell us how a speaker will sound ... that remains quite subjective... (I pick on speakers as the most imperfect of the standard components! - hence providing the most obvious example)

So I can provide these data points

Running into my current speakers (Gallo Nucleus Ref 3.2)

Onkyo SR876 - sounded good
Quad 606 - possibly slightly smoother than the 876 (maybe a very slightly rolled off high end causing that impression?)
Crown XLS2500 - not as smooth as the 606, perhaps a touch more bass weight
Integra DTR70.4 - sounded the same as SR876

All the above I would rank as much of a muchness, and the differences could be caused by bias

Integra DRX3.4
Midrange muddled, imaging lost, soundstage collapse - something definitely wrong!

Integra DRX3.4 with external power amp (either Quad 606 or Crown XLS2500)
System is back to sounding as it should

Do I know exactly what is going wrong with the Integra 3.4 - not for sure... but it is an AVR with a relatively small power supply, driving a speaker with a minimum impedance of 1.6ohm.... sounds to me like the AVR is misbehaving into the low impedance load... (same test done with a more benign speaker load, and all the above examples sounded pretty much the same as each other, including the Integra 3.4)

So yes - subjective evaluation does have validity.... and I feel certain that I identified a case where an amp (AVR in this case) was running well outside of its designed performance envelope ... and sounded like it.

But I would very much like to get some more science into that conclusion - just don't have the tools and perhaps the knowhow to do that.
 
Ask Benchmark. I have given up, see also here: Link
If Benchmark numbers are a little high compared to what Soundstage and Stereophile measured that is one thing. However when I try to make sense of the Stereo.de numbers they seem low by about a factor of two (I tried to show this in a table earlier in the thread). Why don't you use the Soundstage numbers when trying to make your case? Not that it matters a great deal to those of us who believe moderately high DF is sufficient, but maybe people would be more willing to engage with you if you use numbers that are clear and make sense.
(edit: originally mis-wrote something. Also, can we just agree the 8R number at low freqs for the AHB2 is about 290, and Accuphase P4600 is guaranteed to have DF >800?)
 
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I have to ask but does the Accuphase actually add any audible distortion, I imagined they were pretty well engineered.
Keith
I believe they do. Not much, but enough to add some wamth and smoothness.
They specs they provide are not sufficient.

Generally I prefer dealing with harshness at the root, but when the thread starter is happy that's what matters. Accuphase is very well built.
 
Without measurements impossible to say, components attain characteristics ‘silky, smooth’ through convoluted Chinese whispers rather than their actual performance.
As long as the OP is happy although arguably he could have achieved a far greater improvement in SQ changing his speakers or looking at their interaction with the room.
Keith
 
If Benchmark numbers are a little high compared to what Soundstage and Stereophile measured that is one thing. However when I try to make sense of the Stereo.de numbers they seem low by about a factor of two (I tried to show this in a table earlier in the thread). Why don't you use the Soundstage numbers when trying to make your case? Not that it matters a great deal to those of us who believe moderately high DF is sufficient, but maybe people would be more willing to engage with you if you use numbers that are clear and make sense.
The key point is that these numbers are high enough to be meaningless. Unless you have a pathological speaker (impedance dips below 0.5 ohms or so) and extremely short and thick connections, the amplifiers' source impedances are far and away low enough to have no significant effect.

Pogo has a weird obsession with this but has never been able to demonstrate that his obsession translates into anything real in a sonic sense. And hasn't been able to do the trivial calculation to show why this is so.
 
Without measurements impossible to say, components attain characteristics ‘silky, smooth’ through convoluted Chinese whispers rather than their actual performance.
As long as the OP is happy although arguably he could have achieved a far greater improvement in SQ changing his speakers or looking at their interaction with the room.
Keith
It's also a matter of what's being measured and interpretation of it. It's really not that straight forward IMO.
 
It's also a matter of what's being measured and interpretation of it. It's really not that straight forward IMO.
It would be a bit of a pain to set up, but really not too difficult or expensive to get a switching box to set up ABX test with a friend controlling. Of course if they sound the same then the switch box will be blamed.
 
Ask Benchmark. I have given up, see also here: Link
Regarding your obsession on "DF", you seem to be intent on quoting numbers that are not well supported.
Regarding your orthogonal obsession on bridging amps for superior sound, do you realize bridging degrades precious DF by doubling the output impedance?
You alluded in an earlier post that there is much more going on:facepalm:, I recommend you learn what is actually going on.
 
David you are just repeating ‘old wives tales’ is there any evidence that Accuphase amps have ‘sweet silky tone’ and if ( highly unlikely) why do they.
This parroting of un digested information has to stop.
Keith
Please don't dictate to me how and what I post. I know what I'm saying (bloody well should by now) and what I've recently listened and compared them to, so best not say more. You'll be telling me that big ATC speakers are coloured compared to your lean-n-clean references - oh... :D

I find that the few Accuphase amps I've heard over the years 'sound' very much like Quad amps do - and *they* don't really have a sound at all especially as the high frequencies are generally so clean and the later preamps do seem to retail reverb and venue 'atmosphere' well in a good recording. Quad is so much cheaper Watt for Watt so job done as far as I'm concerned, but I admit that even the Artera products don't look like a luscious Accuphase or Luxman.

Tell you what, why don't you BUY an Accuphase amp and listen for yourself if you have any half decent passive speakers to drive it into and, while you're at it, measure the thing to see how it distorts (or not) up top compared to say, a modern Naim, which still seems to sound 'different' for some reason despite improvements over the last fifty years (actually, I believe it's measurable but none of their dealers will accept that).
 
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