Luxman 509Z , Accuphase E 4000 and E5000

[GSM58]

That’s the thing. If you look at my post history (you don’t have to), you will probably see that we have similar tastes in sound.



How close are you to Sao Paolo?

Trinnov | Audiogene installs WaveForming in his showroom in Sao Paulo

Our Brazilian distributor Audiogene hosted a dealer event to showcase WaveForming, which was recently installed in their Paris showroom

www.trinnov.com

Subwoofers are like a surgeon’s scalpel. If they are dull or blunt, performance suffers. So having a good subwoofer is important (like your JL Audio).

Your room is the patient. You don’t get to choose your room, but it makes a big difference in the outcome.

So where is the surgeon’s skill? That’s the DSP. And just like new procedures get invented that rely on the same scalpel and suture, modern DSP is very different than old DSP.

The original JL Audio Fathom room correction from 2004 was a single band EQ that tried to find
the worst peak and take it. The V2 has 18 bands of EQ and is from 2014.

Modern systems are able to look at phase, group delay, frequency response and manipulate them in a way that provides stellar sound.

The limitation is cost *and* physical space to introduce dual subwoofers.

But knowing how expensive everything is in Brazil, your best return on investment is going to be a Trinnov Altitude, even if you are using it for 2 channel music in my humble opinion. The 4 channel Trinnov Nova works too, but it’s less consumer friendly.

Hi friend,


I live in Rio de Janeiro, which is 450 km from São Paulo.
Even at the end of this month there will be an audio fair in the city. I've already arranged with two friends to visit the fair.
I bought the UMIK-1 microphone and I'm studying how to use it in REW.
Still learning the ways to calibrate the room.
I would like to have a mutual friend who mastered this App.
Once again, thank you for your tip and attention with me.

 

[Grotti]

Thank you for the post.

I've noticed that the forum is different from the others.
In the same way that you only believe in graphics and I don't see any problem with it, I need to listen before buying any equipment. If I lived in the USA, everything would be different.
Here I can't make a mistake in a purchase because the financial loss is certain. That's why I make a point of listening before paying. This is valid regardless of the value or brand.

The point is that you certainly will hear non existent differences between two amplifiers when you are listening sighted and with a long delay caused by changing connectors. Not to mention the fact, that it almost certainly will not be level matched. Any sighted critical listening will not take your subjective bias out of the equation and will therefore be meaningless.

I heard hundreds of amplifiers a time long ago, working as a salesman in a hifi shop for a decade and in hindsight, I fell for my bias countless times.

My prediction is that the upgrade from Gryphon to whatever comparable amplifier wouldn't be verified by you in a proper ABX comparison.

But YMMV: if a new Accuphase or something else floats your boat, I can easily understand you ( for the pride of ownership and longevity only!)

 

[GSM58]

The point is that you certainly will hear non existent differences between two amplifiers when you are listening sighted and with a long delay caused by changing connectors. Not to mention the fact, that it almost certainly will not be level matched. Any sighted critical listening will not take your subjective bias out of the equation and will therefore be meaningless.

I heard hundreds of amplifiers a time long ago, working as a salesman in a hifi shop for a decade and in hindsight, I fell for my bias countless times.

My prediction is that the upgrade from Gryphon to whatever comparable amplifier wouldn't be verified by you in a proper ABX comparison.

But YMMV: if a new Accuphase or something else floats your boat, I can easily understand you ( for the pride of ownership and longevity only!)

It's not pride, I don't care about this side you suggested.
I bought my Gryphon in 2014 at a great value because at the time the dollar was low and the brand representative was my friend. Unfortunately, he died years after a heart attack. New guy and super nice people.
It's been 11 years of joy. It's never been opened and it's still here. And it still has a great resale value.
Anyway, I've already solved what I'm going to test to know if it's worth the exchange.

Thank you all for your attention.

 

[Koeitje]

It depends on your goal and budget.
I like to listen to quality music when I have time.
My system has been making me happy for ten years and I'm just thinking about changing the amplification to something different.

I like a balanced sound with good quality.

Just that!

If you want something different then better speakers is what you want. Changing your amplifier will do nothing (that is if its not clipping right now) apart from some placebo effect. But what kind of change are you looking for exactly?

Accuphase and Luxman play differently as well as Darzell, MBL, Gryphon etc.

If it played the same, there would be no reason to have several brands.
Boxes with low impedance require amplifier current.
I'll try to listen to the Luxman 509Z and the Accuphase E4000.
The values are high and I prefer to listen before paying.

That is all placebo if they are well designed amplifiers.

All of the above is with the caveat that I am not familiar with Gryphon amplifiers. They might be badly designed and in that case an amplifier switch might have a positive effect, but likely still less than switching out speakers.

 

[GSM58]

If you want something different then better speakers is what you want. Changing your amplifier will do nothing (that is if its not clipping right now) apart from some placebo effect. But what kind of change are you looking for exactly?


That is all placebo if they are well designed amplifiers.

All of the above is with the caveat that I am not familiar with Gryphon amplifiers. They might be badly designed and in that case an amplifier switch might have a positive effect, but likely still less than switching out speakers.

I'm also going to replace my Contour 20 speakers by the end of the year.
Since I like the sound of the Dynaudio speakers, I'm planning on buying the Confidence 20 speakers.
Returning to amplification, I'm only planning on upgrading to a newer integrated. Unfortunately, the Gryphon brand is no longer available in Brazil. I would definitely buy another one.
Since everything in life has a useful life, I want to sell it while it's still in perfect condition.


That's all!

 

[GSM58]

Guys, I appreciate everyone's participation, but I just found the topic I was looking for.

Accuphase power amplifier with Wharfedale Linton Heritage speakers

Good morning everyone, I'm seeking some advice on amplifiers to go with my new Wharfedale Lintons. I have an opportunity to purchase two Accuphase A20v power amps to run them, along with an Accuphase or other preamp. There's also an Accuphase E250 and E350 for sale which I'm also considering...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DSJR]

My amplifier has high current. He never cut it. My boxes are 4ohms and thanks to that double the power of amplification.

Each brand has a different signature.

No they don't at this level when you don't know which it is.

I can assure you first hand however, that your particular speakers will TOTALLY dominate what you hear, not anything further back in the chain! Confidence 20s have posh looking drive units and a story to tell, but don't expect them to be automatically 'better,' whatever the price or brand loyalty (I do know them).

Gryphon here in the UK, was hardly sold but those who did, would have placed it well over 'tarty Accuphase and cheap Luxman' at the time (I don't feel that way). You may like the physical change in a fresh amp, but I swear that's more what it'll be, plus buyer's guilt at spending all that money.

 

[FrantzM]

Thank you very much and congratulations on your education.

I didn't open the topic to make a mess, quite the opposite.
I live in Brazil and around here we have a lot of difficulty testing equipment. Due to the high tax and government bureaucracy... in this case it is difficult to buy some brands.
I've already heard 4 amplifiers in my system and each one sounded different.
For example. The Electrocompaniet played more closed in the highs. With fewer details than my Gryphon.
Dartzeel was more neutral and more balanced, but for my taste Gryphon was more musical for my taste. Like less tiring.
I don't like annoying or tiring highs. That's why I prefer to listen before buying certain equipment.
Here it's complicated to return a piece of equipment if you don't like it. In the USA it's always easier.
Anyway, I think you already understood my question.
I only opened this topic to know if anyone had already listened to the mentioned integrated ones.
But as you yourself commented,
I'm in the wrong topic / forum. Kkkkk

Big hug and thank you again for your post.

Hi

Bear with me. You are exactly where I was about 10 years ago. I am a long time audiophile 50+ years in the hobby. Started when I was around 10 years old. My father was one too... I grew up surrounded by High Fidelity gear. 15 years ago I was a subjective audiophile who believed strongly in many of the things you currently do.. Krell was forceful, Mark Levinson , was "dark", Spectral was sparkling and Burmester was the best amplifier I ever heard. I believed there were differences between DAC, amplifers, DAC, cables, yes. even cable IMHO had a sound...
I came at ASR here and I realized how foolish that was and how much money I spent for no clear or repeatable results ... I'll spare my entire story but I can tell you that " I have been there and done that" .. I have heard million dollars systems and ... at times have wondered what the entire fuss was all about. I can tell you that the whole edifice of High End Audio is based on lies. The further you stay away from them, the better it will be for your financial well-being and the performance of your audio system.
Based on facts:
Take any of the amplifers you mentioned and have them drive your speakers: If the levels of those amplifiers are matched within 0.5 dB.. with pink noise. And you don't know which amplifiers is playing, I can guarantee that at reasonable levels, say 75 dB in your room... They will all sound the same, whether it is the Luxman or the Accuphase or a $200 (yes 2 -0-0) Fosi Amplifier. The so-called "signature" will be lost A good amplifier sound like a good amplifier, sounds like another good amplifier..
The same thing with DAC .. An apple dongle $9.05 in the US) when level matched is likely to sound the same as any other decent DAC, even one costing $15,000. You, or any other mortal will not be able under blind and level matched conditions discern which is which... This has been demonstrated a thousand times.

Which leaves with what I'd like you to do...
If at all possible could you get that Wiim streaming amplifier I recommended .. I know it is likely to cost you more in Brazil but that would be the price you would pay to learn that Amplifiers all sound the same. it will drive your speakers and may actually provide better performance in your room, since it has a modicum of room correction something the Gryphon lacks... $400 so that you can save going forward much more I suppose thousands...

Stay, Read this ASR forum, ask questions. Our hobby is based on Science. Applying science to your system build and search, provide better results that cost so much less... Repeating with the price of your Gryphon you can build a FULL Range audio system that will put most system you have ever heard to shame.. That will include several hundred of thousand of US dollars systems ...
By The way a 16 AWG (Bout 1.5 mm cable) zip cord is all you need for speaker cables and if you spend more than $30 for your interconnect cables , you spent too much.
Hope to hear from you soon

Peace.

 

[GSM58]

Olá

Tenha paciência comigo. Você está exatamente onde eu estive há cerca de 10 anos. Sou um audiófilo de longa data, mais de 50 anos no hobby. Comecei quando tinha cerca de 10 anos. Meu pai também era um... Cresci cercado por equipamentos de alta fidelidade. 15 anos atrás, eu era um audiófilo subjetivo que defendia fortemente em muitas das coisas que você faz atualmente... Krell era forte, Mark Levinson era "sombrio", Spectral era brilhante e Burmester era o melhor amplificador que já ouvi. Eu acreditava que havia diferenças entre DAC, amplificadores, DAC, cabos, sim. até mesmo o cabo, na minha opinião humilde, tinha um som...
Cheguei à ASR aqui e percebi o quão tolo isso foi e quanto dinheiro gastei sem resultados claros ou repetíveis... Vou poupar minha história inteira, mas posso dizer que "eu já estive lá e fiz isso"... ouvi falar de sistemas de milhões de dólares e... às vezes me interessou o que era toda essa confusão. Posso dizer que todo o edifício da High End Audio é baseado em mentiras. Quanto mais você ficar longe deles, melhor será para o seu bem-estar financeiro e para o desempenho do seu sistema de áudio.
Com base em fatos:
Pegue qualquer um dos amplificadores que você possui e faça com que eles acionem seus alto-falantes: Se os níveis desses amplificadores forem correspondidos dentro de 0,5 dB... com ruído rosa. E você não sabe qual amplificador está tocando, posso garantir que em níveis variados, variados 75 dB em sua sala... Todos eles são iguais, seja o Luxman ou o Accuphase ou um amplificador Fosi de $ 200 (sim, 2 -0-0) . A chamada "assinatura" será perdida. Um bom amplificador é como um bom amplificador, é como outro bom amplificador.
A mesma coisa com DAC... Um dongle da Apple (US$ 9,05 nos EUA) quando nivelado provavelmente soará igual a qualquer outro DAC decente, mesmo um que custa US$ 15.000. Você, ou qualquer outro mortal, não será capaz, sob condições cegas e niveladas, de discernir qual é qual... Isso foi demonstrado mil vezes.

O que nos deixa com o que eu gostaria que você fizesse...
Se possível, você poderia comprar aquele amplificador de streaming Wiim que eu recomendo... Sei que provavelmente custará mais no Brasil, mas esse seria o preço que você pagaria para saber que todos os amplificadores têm o mesmo som. Ele acionará seus alto-falantes e poderá realmente proporcionar um melhor desempenho em sua sala, já que tem um mínimo de correção de ambiente, algo que o Gryphon não tem... US$ 400 para que você possa economizar muito mais no futuro, supondo que milhares...

Fique, leia este fórum ASR, faça perguntas. Nosso hobby é baseado na ciência. Aplicando a ciência à construção e pesquisa do seu sistema, trouxe melhores resultados que custam muito menos... Repetindo com o preço do seu Gryphon, você pode construir um sistema de áudio de alcance COMPLETO que deixará a maioria dos sistemas que você já encontrou envergonhados. Isso incluirá várias centenas de milhares de sistemas de dólares americanos...
A propósito, um cabo zip 16 AWG (cabo de aproximadamente 1,5 mm) é tudo o que você precisa para cabos de alto-falante e se você gastar mais de US$ 30 em cabos de interconexão, você gastou muito.
Espero ouvir de você em breve

Paz.

No stress, my friend. I'm all for peace!!!

Everyone has their own story in the hobby. I'm old too... lol I'm 58 years old and I haven't had a hobby since I was 20. I've heard almost everything in my life. I like to get to know different systems regardless of the price to open my mind. Thank God I had the opportunity to hear several systems in Brazil. I was able to travel to Germany twice to visit the Munich fair in 2015 and 2018. I'm passionate about music and I always try to find the best for my ears without destroying my pocket. I put together a minimalist system with a good level and for my taste it was very good. That's why I've been happily using the Gryphon since 2014. There's no point in you writing that a $200 Chinese amplifier will sound better or the same because I'm not going to buy it based on numbers and graphs. I need to hear it on my system. I don't think you read about the difficulty of returning imported products.
Of course, in the high-end market, there are many people making money with overpriced products. I have no doubt about that. When I bought my Gryphon Atilla, it was well below the list price, it was a spur of the moment opportunity. Today, I wouldn't have the money to buy a new one. I earned my money and worked hard to earn it. I'm definitely thinking a lot about whether it's worth replacing the stereo. The price difference is absurd compared to buying a new integrated system.
Just one big detail. After 11 years of use, my Gryphon is as good as new and works perfectly. I can get a good sale price here. If it were a Chinese product, it would definitely have gone to the trash by now.
We live in different countries and in this case you have a great advantage in testing any equipment at a much lower cost.

In any case, I thank you for your attention and always appreciate it when you speak with respect and politeness.

God bless you!

 

[GXAlan]

Hi friend,


I live in Rio de Janeiro, which is 450 km from São Paulo.
Even at the end of this month there will be an audio fair in the city. I've already arranged with two friends to visit the fair.

Hopefully someone will be demoing a Trinnov based system, even if it’s a home theater showcase or a 2.0 without a subwoofer showcase.

Bear with me. .
Based on facts:
If the levels of those amplifiers are matched within 0.5 dB.. with pink noise. And you don't know which amplifiers is playing, I can guarantee that at reasonable levels, say 75 dB in your room... They will all sound the same, whether it is the Luxman or the Accuphase or a $200 (yes 2 -0-0) Fosi Amplifier. The so-called "signature" will be lost A good amplifier sound like a good amplifier, sounds like another good amplifier.

I agree 99%. What will be interesting is that when you level match using pink noise, and there are frequency response deviations, you won’t be able to truly match everything. So the concept of “if you level match” is actually quite hard to execute in real life. You have to use tools like DeltaWave or Audacity to fine tune differences in phase and frequency response — and then they do sound identical.

But if that’s the case, this is emphasizing the power of DSP.

Integrated Amplifier Comparison: $90 vs $9000

I continue to hear differences between amplifiers that might be expected to be inaudibly different. That is, for two high-SINAD systems that I'm not running into clipping, I hear differences. I also believe in measurements. My perspective has been consistent: "Everything that can be measured...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And

Does DSD recording benefit Japanese traditional instruments?

Is DSD 11.2 MHz "required" for recording taiko drums and Japanese stringed instruments? https://www.phileweb.com/review/column/202303/29/2088.html Original article in Japanese "The powerful and deep ultra-low sound of Japanese taiko drums and the penetrating treble of Noukan and Hichiriki...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And

Two reasonable DACs with a large PK Metric when tested with real music...

I've previously shown that my SA-11s2 and Panasonic UB9000 sound similarly and measure similarly with DeltaWave. In this post, I'm sharing some preliminary data showing a) a measurable PK Metric difference between two reasonable DACs with real music b) the DAC with a ~10 dB worse 1 kHz SINAD...

www.audiosciencereview.com

There is also real-world differences like this:

Measured effect of cable routing/component placement

In DIY amplifier kits, there is often talk of cable routing and effects on measured performance. Here I would like to show the difference with real, premium electronics using worst case topologies. Test Setup Topping D90 MQA Belden 8423 0.8m XLR balanced cable Marantz PM-10 integrated amp...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Or even take the Bluesound Node Icon. It works great on the APx555 and my home system most of the time. But some people have horrible ground loops while others don’t. For some reason, my setup developed a ground loop but only on one speaker, which solved by tying the ground of the RCA to the earth ground.

The best reason to sell the Gryphon is lack of in country support since there is no longer distribution. Like everyone, ignoring the room and recording, speakers make biggest difference followed by the DSP. I would rather run a AVR with premium speakers than a midrange speaker powered by a flagship integrated amp. Unlike everyone, I don’t think everything is sighted bias. I also think that when someone says two electrical components sound very different, the actual difference is minuscule and only in specific portions of specific tracks. More importantly, my experience is that these subtle differences disappear as our body adapts.

I was lucky enough in my Japanese DSD comparison to prove to myself and others who will listen that I could ABX differences that shouldn’t be audible. This was done by having a tingling effect on the back of my neck. I got 16/16 right and it was pretty cool.

The next day and every day after ward, I was never able to generate the tingle with any setup. Whatever was detectable the day before was gone.

This is why I think we have the upgraditis. Not that it’s sighted bias but that when something sounds different, our ability exists to detect it for a moment.

Going back to what everyone would agree upon
1) spend the most on speakers. You are better getting your floor standing Dynaudio’s before you change your amp.

2) I had the WiiM Ultra and it wasn’t as resilient as my Node Icon to noise. I would run the Node Icon with Dirac if a Trinnov was not in my budget.

3) If I was constrained to a $5k retail budget, I would go

Trinnov Nova $4000
JBL 308P II $400
Earthquake CP8: $259

That’s how much I value the DSP in my system.

My two systems:
Bluesound Node Icon
Meyer Sound Ultra X40
Earthquake Sound CP8

Trinnov Altitude 32
Meyer Sound Amie LCR
Meyer Sound MM4XP Atmos
Meyer Sound UP4XP surround
Power Sound Audio S1813M
Earthquake Sound Luminous LU-15

 

[GSM58]

The best reason to sell the Gryphon is lack of in country support since there is no longer distribution.

This is a war tank. 11 years of joy... I'm already in profit. kkkkk

Hopefully someone will be demoing a Trinnov based system, even if it’s a home theater showcase or a 2.0 without a subwoofer showcase.

If I have it, I'll take some pictures and send them to you.

 

[Svend P]

You could make a comparison with your Denon AVR. It will also sound the same as your Gryphon, if you disable all DSP programs. But you need a friend to do the changing over from one amplifier to another, since you have very strong bias towards more expensive products sounding better. You need to be unaware of which amplifier is playing for the test to be valid.

 

[dogmamann]

Thank you for your answer.

I don't like listening to music on Stereo with subwoofer. Only in movies or multichannel.

In the dedicated Stereo a good amplification with good boxes already has a great result in the bass.

I'll try to test a Luxman 509Z on my system and see what happens.

You are on the wrong forum if I am not wrong.

 

[Svend P]

With the money you are spending, you could easily get a pair of Genelec 8361a active speakers and be done with it.

Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelc 8361A studio monitor (powered active speaker). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $4,995. The 8361A looks identical to the rest of the series except massively scaled up: It doesn't look it but it is extremely heavy. It has a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Overseas]

I am a non technical audiophile. After many medium priced amplifications, I would never give up my Yamaha As1100 but... I tried many amps and DACs and, for bugets like 5-7-10k it is like 99% sure you can find same or better SQ for half the price. Only if you have the time and opportunity to investigate. This forum is the place, for this
If budget is no problem, then ok.
But...again but... I wanted an upgrade so I got a new AS2200 . Guess what, subjectively or not, after testing in my space, it was returned next day.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Guilherme66
I am very pleased that you have enough money to spend what appears to be a very large amount on hifi!
However. Either accept that on ASR, you will be advised towards room treatment or "better" speakers, or realise that your subjective opinions would be better appreciated on just about any other hifi forum on the internet. Welcome to ASR.

 

[GSM58]

You are on the wrong forum if I am not wrong.

If I'm not mistaken, I didn't ask you anything.

 

[GSM58]

have already answered all the messages with all the patience in the world.
I have explained all the details of import and return several times.
If anyone wants to send me some equipment for testing at no cost, I will give you my address now.

 

[AdrianusG]

I have had a system with the Gryphon Atilla integrated system for over 10 years.
I really like the Gryphon signature, but I am thinking about upgrading.
Has anyone heard the Luxman 509Z and the Accuphase E 4000/5000?
I use Dynaudio Contour 20 speakers.

Oh Man, i wish I had the luxury of even contemplating one of these Amps for purchase, oh well , perhaps in another life

 

[Koeitje]

This is a war tank. 11 years of joy... I'm already in profit. kkkkk

I'm also going to replace my Contour 20 speakers by the end of the year.
Since I like the sound of the Dynaudio speakers, I'm planning on buying the Confidence 20 speakers.
Returning to amplification, I'm only planning on upgrading to a newer integrated. Unfortunately, the Gryphon brand is no longer available in Brazil. I would definitely buy another one.
Since everything in life has a useful life, I want to sell it while it's still in perfect condition.


That's all!

You still haven't made it clear what exactly you want to achieve by switching amplifiers?