Luxman 509Z , Accuphase E 4000 and E5000

[GSM58]

I have had a system with the Gryphon Atilla integrated system for over 10 years.
I really like the Gryphon signature, but I am thinking about upgrading.
Has anyone heard the Luxman 509Z and the Accuphase E 4000/5000?
I use Dynaudio Contour 20 speakers.

 

[Koeitje]

They will all sound the same. Is your current amplifier clipping when you play loud music?

 

[GSM58]

They will all sound the same. Is your current amplifier clipping when you play loud music?

My amplifier has high current. He never cut it. My boxes are 4ohms and thanks to that double the power of amplification.

Each brand has a different signature.

 

[GXAlan]

That is an attractive setup. The Gryphon’s historically do not have a lot of feedback, so they don’t measure that well. In that case, the Luxman is more similar to the Gryphon.

The Accuphase 4-digit line are going to measure better.

E-5000 has 0.63 microvolt residual noise and reducing noise is the only consensus you will get from most ASR members about audible differences between amps. The preamp is also quieter than the E-4000 based upon the specs.

Based upon my look at your setup, I think the best improvement in sound will be going to stereo subwoofers. If you have the budget, I would even go Trinnov Altitude16 and use 4 subs to enable Waveforming. I would pair that with a lower priced amplifier such as the Benchmark AHB2.

 

[Svend P]

Each brand has a different signature.

That's what they want you to believe, so you keep buying new ones. In reality they all measure flat and have distortion and noise below audible levels. They will all sound the same.

This is how you hear differences in sound. No amplifier does this to the sound without using an equalizer.

 

[GSM58]

That is an attractive setup. The Gryphon’s historically do not have a lot of feedback, so they don’t measure that well. In that case, the Luxman is more similar to the Gryphon.

The Accuphase 4-digit line are going to measure better.

E-5000 has 0.63 microvolt residual noise and reducing noise is the only consensus you will get from most ASR members about audible differences between amps. The preamp is also quieter than the E-4000 based upon the specs.

Based upon my look at your setup, I think the best improvement in sound will be going to stereo subwoofers. If you have the budget, I would even go Trinnov Altitude16 and use 4 subs to enable Waveforming. I would pair that with a lower priced amplifier such as the Benchmark AHB2.

Thank you for your answer.

I don't like listening to music on Stereo with subwoofer. Only in movies or multichannel.

In the dedicated Stereo a good amplification with good boxes already has a great result in the bass.

I'll try to test a Luxman 509Z on my system and see what happens.

 

[Koeitje]

My amplifier has high current. He never cut it. My boxes are 4ohms and thanks to that double the power of amplification.

Each brand has a different signature.

Boxes don't require amplification, you use them to store things.

If you current amplifier has a signature sound it is not a very good amplifier, in that case Accuphase are good options because they don't have a signature sound at all. Not very familiar with how Luxman measures, but Accuphase has always been solid. Its not state-of-the-art but pretty good if you want something that looks and feels nice while being good enough in terms of performance.

Thank you for your answer.

I don't like listening to music on Stereo with subwoofer. Only in movies or multichannel.

In the dedicated Stereo a good amplification with good boxes already has a great result in the bass.

I'll try to test a Luxman 509Z on my system and see what happens.

So full range sound is not really your goal? Most people who are into hi-fi want to cover the entire frequency spectrum. The biggest improvement you will see in your setup is better loadspeakers with bigger woofers.

 

[GSM58]

Boxes don't require amplification, you use them to store things.

If you current amplifier has a signature sound it is not a very good amplifier, in that case Accuphase and Luxman are good options because they don't have a signature sound at all.


So full range sound is not really your goal? Most people who are into hi-fi want to cover the entire frequency spectrum. The biggest improvement you will see in your setup is better loadspeakers with bigger woofers.

Accuphase and Luxman play differently as well as Darzell, MBL, Gryphon etc.

If it played the same, there would be no reason to have several brands.
Boxes with low impedance require amplifier current.
I'll try to listen to the Luxman 509Z and the Accuphase E4000.
The values are high and I prefer to listen before paying.

 

[GSM58]

So full range sound is not really your goal? Most people who are into hi-fi want to cover the entire frequency spectrum. The biggest improvement you will see in your setup is better loadspeakers with bigger woofers.

It depends on your goal and budget.
I like to listen to quality music when I have time.
My system has been making me happy for ten years and I'm just thinking about changing the amplification to something different.

I like a balanced sound with good quality.

Just that!

 

[GSM58]

Here in Brazil everything is very expensive.

The Accuphase E4000 and E5000 are much more expensive than the top Luxman 509Z.

My dream is to have the E5000 or E800 but I need to save more money.

To give you an idea, the Accuphase E5000 costs almost twice the price of the Luxman 509z

 

[GXAlan]

I don't like listening to music on Stereo with subwoofer. Only in movies or multichannel.

I know. I was exactly thinking the way you did, but that’s because your sub/main integration is not good enough.

When it’s decent, it is lovely for movies or multichannel but lousy for music. So, I used to run music without the sub.

BUT when it is properly setup and optimized, it’s a huge upgrade in performance. Switching amps is a lot less impact on sound quality and is more often than not, mostly sighted bias with perhaps only the vanishingly fleeting difference that can occasionally be abx’d.

The problem is that your body adapts. I was able to abx very subtle differences because even though they sounded identical, one of the tests resulted in the tingling in the back of your neck feeling. But after the first day, I was never able to generate those tingly feelings. I don’t think it was random luck that allowed me to ABX it — just that I had adapted.

Adding stereo subs which are well integrated improved the subjective experience overall. Much like there is some thought that the ultrasonics, or better, the higher frequency content below 20 kHz but above what you can hear at your age can contribute to the “air” of the sound perhaps through IMD, adding the subtle bass even if your speakers are full range helps.

The fact that you are running bookshelves, really means you need proper subwoofer integration.

Post in thread 'How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-runs-subs-of-any-kind-why.61714/post-2273080

 

[GSM58]

I know. I was exactly thinking the way you did, but that’s because your sub/main integration is not good enough.

When it’s decent, it is lovely for movies or multichannel but lousy for music. So, I used to run music without the sub.

BUT when it is properly setup and optimized, it’s a huge upgrade in performance. Switching amps is a lot less impact on sound quality and is more often than not, mostly sighted bias with perhaps only the vanishingly fleeting difference that can occasionally be abx’d.

The problem is that your body adapts. I was able to abx very subtle differences because even though they sounded identical, one of the tests resulted in the tingling in the back of your neck feeling. But after the first day, I was never able to generate those tingly feelings. I don’t think it was random luck that allowed me to ABX it — just that I had adapted.

Adding stereo subs which are well integrated improved the subjective experience overall. Much like there is some thought that the ultrasonics, or better, the higher frequency content below 20 kHz but above what you can hear at your age can contribute to the “air” of the sound perhaps through IMD, adding the subtle bass even if your speakers are full range helps.

The fact that you are running bookshelves, really means you need proper subwoofer integration.

Post in thread 'How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-runs-subs-of-any-kind-why.61714/post-2273080

In this case it goes to the personal taste of each one.
I listened to some systems with subs and I didn't like it. I think it's very cool for multichannel, it's mandatory in movies.
I have a great JLAudio Sub and I don't need it when I listen to Stereo.
My room is not dedicated, I did a basic work in the acoustics and it gave a great result.

But I appreciate your tip an thank you for your attention

 

[MRC01]

Based on the photo, your biggest improvements could come from changes to the room. Take some measurements and use REW to see what corrections are needed. But generally speaking, move your speakers away from the corners of the room and deploy treatments to control bass modes/reflections (tube traps, bass traps, resonators).

 

[GSM58]

Based on the photo, your biggest improvements could come from changes to the room. Take some measurements and use REW to see what corrections are needed. But generally speaking, move your speakers away from the corners of the room and deploy treatments to control bass modes/reflections (tube traps, bass traps, resonators).

Yes, we all have limitations in living rooms. But in general the room is great.
I put rock wool on the panel and it gave a good improvement in the room's acoustics.
I bought two acoustic boards that I use on the sofa and on the sides of the living room two screens with rock wool.
My boxes are 70 cm away from the back wall. It was the best position I've found so far.

We do what we can in a living room.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi @Guilherme66

Welcome to ASR. This forum is very much different from many of those you may have frequented the past. Science is the guiding principle of ASR.
We believe in what can be proven scientifically. Anecdotes although tolerated once in a while, have no sway here.
There are several threads that could help you get a hang on what and how we do things here. How we processed information and build systems. it is very much Science-based... Th most interesting thing is: It WORKS. And the other thing is that it saves money. Lot of it. You could , for the price of the Gryphon alone build a magnificent., pleasurable, high performance system ... Yes you could. It may (will) take time to reach this Nirvana but there is a way, highly scientific and highly repeatable... Oh! and one more thing. We don't trust our ears here ... . We trust measurements.
For exemple this notion of brand "Signature", if it exists at all, it has to be measurable. Any scientific measurements that would back up your assertion? I am quoting you

Each brand has a different signature.

Good amplifers all sound the same if they are within the parameters of the speakers.. 4 Ohms is not such a big load and several inexpensive (read "cheap"), like around $200 will drive these speakers ... no sweat.
I suggest you try a good, inexpensive amplifier on your speakers.. Really.. Seriously ... That one the Wiim Streaming amplifier.. Review: Click Here

There is thread about advices to those who come to ASR from a subjective mindset... Asking the thread name to the collective, so that we can recommend it to @Guilherme66

Stay, take the time to read the threads and understand, truly understand. you will learn a lot (if you are serious and committed) and save a lot... While getting your system to an unsuspected level of performance.

Peace.

 

[GSM58]

Hi @Guilherme66

Welcome to ASR. This forum is very much different from many of those you may have frequented the past. Science is the guiding principle of ASR.
We believe in what can be proven scientifically. Anecdotes although tolerated once in a while, have no sway here.
There are several threads that could help you get a hang on what and how we do things here. How we processed information and build systems. it is very much Science-based... Th most interesting thing is: It WORKS. And the other thing is that it saves money. Lot of it. You could , for the price of the Gryphon alone build a magnificent., pleasurable, high performance system ... Yes you could. It may (will) take time to reach this Nirvana but there is a way, highly scientific and highly repeatable... Oh! and one more thing. We don't trust our ears here ... . We trust measurements.
For exemple this notion of brand "Signature", if it exists at all, it has to be measurable. Any scientific measurements that would back up your assertion? I am quoting you



Good amplifers all sound the same if they are within the parameters of the speakers.. 4 Ohms is not such a big load and several inexpensive (read "cheap"), like around $200 will drive these speakers ... no sweat.
I suggest you try a good, inexpensive amplifier on your speakers.. Really.. Seriously ... That one the Wiim Streaming amplifier.. Review: Click Here

There is thread about advices to those who come to ASR from a subjective mindset... Asking the thread name to the collective, so that we can recommend it to @Guilherme66

Stay, take the time to read the threads and understand, truly understand. you will learn a lot (if you are serious and committed) and save a lot... While getting your system to an unsuspected level of performance.

Peace.

Thank you very much and congratulations on your education.

I didn't open the topic to make a mess, quite the opposite.
I live in Brazil and around here we have a lot of difficulty testing equipment. Due to the high tax and government bureaucracy... in this case it is difficult to buy some brands.
I've already heard 4 amplifiers in my system and each one sounded different.
For example. The Electrocompaniet played more closed in the highs. With fewer details than my Gryphon.
Dartzeel was more neutral and more balanced, but for my taste Gryphon was more musical for my taste. Like less tiring.
I don't like annoying or tiring highs. That's why I prefer to listen before buying certain equipment.
Here it's complicated to return a piece of equipment if you don't like it. In the USA it's always easier.
Anyway, I think you already understood my question.
I only opened this topic to know if anyone had already listened to the mentioned integrated ones.
But as you yourself commented,
I'm in the wrong topic / forum. Kkkkk

Big hug and thank you again for your post.

 

[GSM58]

Another important detail.

It's no use buying a $500 Chinese amplifier on Aliexpress because it will arrive here for $1000 and no chance to return it if you don't like it.
That's why in my case hearing is more important than graphics.
And worst of all, there is no guarantee of time. In this case, I prefer not to risk it.
The dollar exchange rate in Brazil is 6x1
In other words, it's absurd apart from the import tax that reaches 100%

 

[Jim Taylor]

Each brand has a different signature.

Accuphase and Luxman play differently as well as Darzell, MBL, Gryphon etc.

If you wish to prove (to yourself, not us) what characteristics the amps do or do not have, try this:

I didn't open the topic to make a mess, quite the opposite.

Don't worry ... you didn't make a mess.

But as you yourself commented,
I'm in the wrong topic / forum.

No you're not.
The vast majority of audio forums on the web are dedicated to unregulated subjectivist banter. Chitty-chitty chat-chat, chitty chat. They are forced to monetize their sites, and must depend on ads and traffic count to survive. Truth comes in a very distant third ... or fourth.
ASR is different. It is owned by Amir Majidimehr, who pays the expenses of the site out of his own pocket. If you notice, there are no ads here. He created this site to support the application of logic and scientific principles to the audio hobby. That's why you don't see the "scratch-my-butt-and-I'll-scratch-yours" type of conversations here.

As a result, we say what we think.. We may at times appear to be blunt, but it's all in the service of clarity, accuracy and better engineering.

Stick around. We'd like to have you here. I've learned a lot, and so can you.

p.s. - This page can help you get going: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...t-understand-all-the-graphs-and-charts.46402/

 

[GXAlan]

In this case it goes to the personal taste of each one.

I listened to some systems with subs and I didn't like it. I think it's very cool for multichannel, it's mandatory in movies.

That’s the thing. If you look at my post history (you don’t have to), you will probably see that we have similar tastes in sound.

I have a great JLAudio Sub and I don't need it when I listen to Stereo.
My room is not dedicated, I did a basic work in the acoustics and it gave a great result.

But I appreciate your tip an thank you for your attention

How close are you to Sao Paolo?

Trinnov | Audiogene installs WaveForming in his showroom in Sao Paulo

Our Brazilian distributor Audiogene hosted a dealer event to showcase WaveForming, which was recently installed in their Paris showroom

www.trinnov.com

Subwoofers are like a surgeon’s scalpel. If they are dull or blunt, performance suffers. So having a good subwoofer is important (like your JL Audio).

Your room is the patient. You don’t get to choose your room, but it makes a big difference in the outcome.

So where is the surgeon’s skill? That’s the DSP. And just like new procedures get invented that rely on the same scalpel and suture, modern DSP is very different than old DSP.

The original JL Audio Fathom room correction from 2004 was a single band EQ that tried to find
the worst peak and take it. The V2 has 18 bands of EQ and is from 2014.

Modern systems are able to look at phase, group delay, frequency response and manipulate them in a way that provides stellar sound.

The limitation is cost *and* physical space to introduce dual subwoofers.

But knowing how expensive everything is in Brazil, your best return on investment is going to be a Trinnov Altitude, even if you are using it for 2 channel music in my humble opinion. The 4 channel Trinnov Nova works too, but it’s less consumer friendly.

 

[GSM58]

If you wish to prove (to yourself, not us) what characteristics the amps do or do not have, try this:

Don't worry ... you didn't make a mess.



No you're not.
The vast majority of audio forums on the web are dedicated to unregulated subjectivist banter. Chitty-chitty chat-chat, chitty chat. They are forced to monetize their sites, and must depend on ads and traffic count to survive. Truth comes in a very distant third ... or fourth.
ASR is different. It is owned by Amir Majidimehr, who pays the expenses of the site out of his own pocket. If you notice, there are no ads here. He created this site to support the application of logic and scientific principles to the audio hobby. That's why you don't see the "scratch-my-butt-and-I'll-scratch-yours" type of conversations here.

As a result, we say what we think.. We may at times appear to be blunt, but it's all in the service of clarity, accuracy and better engineering.

Stick around. We'd like to have you here. I've learned a lot, and so can you.

p.s. - This page can help you get going: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...t-understand-all-the-graphs-and-charts.46402/

Thank you for the post.

I've noticed that the forum is different from the others.
In the same way that you only believe in graphics and I don't see any problem with it, I need to listen before buying any equipment. If I lived in the USA, everything would be different.
Here I can't make a mistake in a purchase because the financial loss is certain. That's why I make a point of listening before paying. This is valid regardless of the value or brand.