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Bait and switch issue? [POLL]

Is there a bait and switch issue? (you can select up to 2 choices)

  • Yes

  • No

  • Maybe Yes

  • Maybe No

  • Others

  • I would like Amir to do an ASR gathering to further investigate


Results are only viewable after voting.
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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I bought the Whirlpool Dish washer rated for 48dB noise level solely because I have an open kitchen layout that is by my office and I wanted to minimize the noise from it while I listen to music. Priorities!! :cool::cool:
Nice! Mine is similar in dB rating, at 47db.

My kitchen is open concept too, thus having it at around 47db or less is nice for watching movie in family room or listening to music in living room.
: )
 

Timcognito

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I ended up installed it myself.
As did I for the same reason. i spent hours on the phone trying to get someone from Home Depot to do it after I paid for that service. It was trouble hauling it up stairs and old one down. Other than the lack of noise we are ho-hum about the Bosch, so maybe the Whirlpool is better.;)
 

bloodshoteyed

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Not sure I like how you've picked out Chinese manufacturers. I don't think ethnicity is relevant.

i'm slowly but evermore surely getting annoyed the crap out of me by the fact that whenever something of chinese origin gets a negative comment it turns into a question of racism
 
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Pdxwayne

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As did I for the same reason. i spent hours on the phone trying to get someone from Home Depot to do it after I paid for that service. It was trouble hauling it up stairs and old one down. Other than the lack of noise we are ho-hum about the Bosch, so maybe the Whirlpool is better.;)
I still want a Bosch if possible.
: )

Since many in USA are affected by supplies chain issues and we both suffered from labor shortage issue, I can imagine manufacturers in China (especially with their 0 covid case policy) are also facing very bad supplies chain and labor issues.

I can also understand that honest China manufacturers had to make difficult decision to substitute good parts with not so optimal parts due to reasons mentioned above, and not due to lacks of ethics.
 

Chrispy

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I'd think it's more you from your various posts. DIdn't see "it's just Wayne being super anal about dacs again" as an option.
 

JSmith

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The majority of items Amir tests are sent by general members, not manufacturers. There has been a number of occasions where one is from the manufacturer and one is from a member, which have tested basically the same.

Best way to check for bait and swap is for more members to open their units and post clear high def pics so parts can be visually compared.


JSmith
 
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Pdxwayne

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I'd think it's more you from your various posts. DIdn't see "it's just Wayne being super anal about dacs again" as an option.
Please select "Others".
 
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Pdxwayne

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The majority of items Amir tests are sent by general members, not manufacturers. There has been a number of occasions where one is from the manufacturer and one is from a member, which have tested basically the same.

Best way to check for bait and swap is for more members to open their units and post clear high def pics so parts can be visually compared.


JSmith
Ummmmmm.....This is about DAC and HPA. I am sure NONE were sent by normal, non affiliated members to Amir.
 

tmtomh

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@Pdxwayne , I have three thoughts in response to your post and this thread. I'm not sure how useful they are, but for what they're worth here they are:

1. My honest answer to your question is, I don't know. It is indeed puzzling, and I'm sorry you've had so much hassle.

2. My equally honest response to your original post - and I mean no offense - is that I find myself compelled to question the source of the information because so many of your items have been unsatisfactory to you. The busted SMSL screen is of course an objectively broken thing. But 6/9 items returned/messed up in some way - I feel that's highly unlikely as an objective thing, not so much because I have a ton of faith in the manufacturers but rather because if the failure/problem rate were that high, we would have heard a lot about it here and on other forums. I've no doubt one can easily find complaints and problem reports on some of these units - but if 2/3 of your units were not up to snuff in a way that reflects manufacturing problems, I would expect we'd have seen a lot more widespread complaints and issue reports on line than we have.

3. I never for a second thought you were making an issue of Chinese nationality or ethnicity. I would only say that since so much gear is made in China these days, I question whether it's even a meaningful distinction to make whether or not the brand is a Chinese one. It's virtually all produced in China, and most of the rest is assembled somewhere else with components made in China; and I don't know that Chinese corporate control makes any difference one way or the other either.

If Amir is willing to test your individual units and you can get them to him, that would be awesome.
 
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Pdxwayne

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@Pdxwayne , I have three thoughts in response to your post and this thread. I'm not sure how useful they are, but for what they're worth here they are:

1. My honest answer to your question is, I don't know. It is indeed puzzling, and I'm sorry you've had so much hassle.

2. My equally honest response to your original post - and I mean no offense - is that I find myself compelled to question the source of the information because so many of your items have been unsatisfactory to you. The busted SMSL screen is of course an objectively broken thing. But 6/9 items returned/messed up in some way - I feel that's highly unlikely as an objective thing, not so much because I have a ton of faith in the manufacturers but rather because if the failure/problem rate were that high, we would have heard a lot about it here and on other forums. I've no doubt one can easily find complaints and problem reports on some of these units - but if 2/3 of your units were not up to snuff in a way that reflects manufacturing problems, I would expect we'd have seen a lot more widespread complaints and issue reports on line than we have.

3. I never for a second thought you were making an issue of Chinese nationality or ethnicity. I would only say that since so much gear is made in China these days, I question whether it's even a meaningful distinction to make whether or not the brand is a Chinese one. It's virtually all produced in China, and most of the rest is assembled somewhere else with components made in China; and I don't know that Chinese corporate control makes any difference one way or the other either.

If Amir is willing to test your individual units and you can get them to him, that would be awesome.
Regarding #2:

Other than screen not working, many of the issues I found are not so serious that those could be easily discovered by regular buyers.

Those are like "not sounding as clean", "bass not as good," "gives different clues when running online timing tests", etc.

Unless one has multiple DAC and HPA on hand to compare, one might not sense the differences.

Even with all the differences I sensed, I still like my Topping E30 + L30 combo in my computer room. I still like my Gustard X16 + H16 combo in my living room.

My issues is more about sensing differences when none should be sensed.
 

Jimbob54

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Ummmmmm.....This is about DAC and HPA. I am sure NONE were sent by normal, non affiliated members to Amir.
This is true. The mainstream stuff that is reviewed at or near release date from Topping /smsl /Gustard /sabaj are sent in by the manufacturer or one of their major resellers. As is a lot of the newer schiit stuff until they spat the dummy out. Some of the more niche stuff from the same manufs. is user sent (the smsl vmv d3 for example).

There have also been some discussions and investigations into golden sample accusations (the M500 thermal issue being one that springs to mind)
 

restorer-john

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Different capacitors whatever would not cause them to "sound" different.

I've seen products where filter capacitors were reduced in value (having a direct effect on power output and noise), and products where at various stages in the product cycle, main filtration was halved in the main filter banks from the original versions. And that was from a big Japanese brand starting with an S...
 

JSmith

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I am sure NONE were sent by normal, non affiliated members to Amir.
Quick search revealed about a 50/50 split with the first few pages of DAC reviews, with the below all loaned by members, drop shipped or purchased by Amir on Amazon;
I don't think some of these companies manufacture their own products, rather design them then engage other companies to build and distribute them under license... so if parts are being substituted it's possible the designing company knows nothing of what parts may be swapped out by the actual manufacturer.

I think it's possible though to attribute QC issues (present to a % in all modern consumer products) to something more sinister, when that may not be the case. Not saying it's not possible though either...


JSmith
 

Jimbob54

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Quick search revealed about a 50/50 split with the first few pages of DAC reviews, with the below all loaned by members, drop shipped or purchased by Amir on Amazon;
I don't think some of these companies manufacture their own products, rather design them then engage other companies to build and distribute them under license... so if parts are being substituted it's possible the designing company knows nothing of what parts may be swapped out by the actual manufacturer.

I think it's possible though to attribute QC issues (present to a % in all modern consumer products) to something more sinister, when that may not be the case. Not saying it's not possible though either...


JSmith
As mentioned above, the majority of topping, smsl and Gustard gear (as that is what the op is dealing with) plus I'm sure other brands (lots of the dongles for eg) is sent for review by the manufacturer or their major reseller. Amir is clear on this.
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Quick search revealed about a 50/50 split with the first few pages of DAC reviews, with the below all loaned by members, drop shipped or purchased by Amir on Amazon;
I don't think some of these companies manufacture their own products, rather design them then engage other companies to build and distribute them under license... so if parts are being substituted it's possible the designing company knows nothing of what parts may be swapped out by the actual manufacturer.

I think it's possible though to attribute QC issues (present to a % in all modern consumer products) to something more sinister, when that may not be the case. Not saying it's not possible though either...


JSmith
Maybe I was not clear enough in my response. Like Jimbob54 said, I was referring to the devices in my original post.
 

JSmith

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Maybe I was not clear enough in my response.
Sorry I thought you broadened the topic when you stated "none" rather than none of a specific subset.

Surely the best way to ascertain if there are golden samples being sent, is for members to send in the same unit for follow up testing? The M500/SU9 issue was discovered by a member buying a 2nd unit to test themselves, then Amir and Prof. Wolf got involved etc., so this would help IMO as would more user teardowns being posted. I'm not attempting to negate your findings either, simply approaching this from a factual perspective.


JSmith
 

amirm

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I don't have good enough measuring equipments to know for sure. Thus would love Amir to do a gathering to further investigate.
You have a concern that I do not. So if you want something done here, you should do the gathering and fund such a study. I have so much to test that I don't see dealing with your doubt being a good use of my time. I can be bought however. :) I will charge $200 per device to do this secondary testing. Get me as many as you like with a check for that amount (each) and I will test them all.
 
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