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Bait and switch issue? [POLL]

Is there a bait and switch issue? (you can select up to 2 choices)

  • Yes

  • No

  • Maybe Yes

  • Maybe No

  • Others

  • I would like Amir to do an ASR gathering to further investigate


Results are only viewable after voting.
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DSJR

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Well, a pal of mine bought a Miele washer and dryer at silly expense for his new bungalow, thinking they would be better than a popular commercial brand and what happened? The machine came on to wash on its timer shortly before he got up and on getting up, the entire ground floor was flooded due to the machine failing... We owned Zanussi washers for many years and the only failure was a slimline (front to back) model I inherited from my deceased father (used lightly for a year) and thrashed mercilessly by us as our son was young and the small capacity of the thing meant three or more wash cycles per day. The main drum bearing shaft suddenly gave way while in a spin cycle and the noise was horrendous. The labour charge to strip down and replace the bearing was almost the same as a new machine, so off to the recycling centre it went at three years old.

I went to the nearest 'Comet' warehouse (do UK peeps remember those?) and they had a perfect for us Zanussi on special offer, with faster spin and timer and next to it, a Bosch Classix for a hundred quid more. Silly 'bunt' that I was, I went with the snooty option of the Bosch as all my posher pals (except the Miele owning one) used Bosch and the bloody thing didn't spin the clothes dry well (despite a 1400 speed), ate motor brushes every three years or so (a pain to replace without removing the motor but doable) and finally, we had a slight but persistent water leak which went un-noticed in the cupboard the machine resides in and it appears it could have been the drum bearing water seal, as the Concorde taking off noise on spin cycles got worse and worse until the neighbour complained (her sitting room is on the far side of that party wall). We replaced it with a cheapish large-load machine which is used once every three days due to the extra capacity..

So for me, I'd never go for a fancy-foo utility product like a washing machine now. Having said that, our gifted years ago dishwasher is a Bosch from 1988 and it's still working fine even if it shows the house moves and age here and there ;) I was told the new ones are nothng like as solid. The inlet water valve failed ten years ago or so and I was able to obtain and replace it myself as it's shared with other non-Bosch models of the period. Fascinating things, dishwashers, with hidden tanks and all sorts in the bottom and sides of the structure and flexible pipes everywhere :D


P.S. As far as dacs are concerned, they're utility items now and I just can't afford expensive lavish casework, or the manufacturers' pension pots to be fed, of expensive confections available here. A Schiit or Topping will do me fine, although I'd love to be easily able to afford an RME...
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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I think y'all should stop gaslighting them specially when they have repeatedly shown both measurements and blind tests to support their findings.

It's very clear that Amir's review is usually an hour or two at most of testing and sometimes things slip through the cracks that users discover after months of use.

If you ask me who gives a fuck? Only a fraction of members here pay for SOTA performance across the entire playback chain, and even a smaller fraction test their equipment thoroughly. This is why we don't hear those stories often. In reality sample to sample variation is huge and Amir has recieved several faulty units that were never published or their reviews were completely scrapped.

Either way the gaslighting is honestly gross and disrespectful.
Just want to make sure, "Them" in your context are members who hear/sense a different between supposedly transparent devices, am I correct?

Thanks!
 

Loathecliff

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I went to the nearest 'Comet' warehouse (do UK peeps remember those?)
:) Who could ever forget them?.... It's only been ten years.... Erm :(

What did they do wrong that PCW/Curry/Dixons did right?

Still off-topic, our 17 years old store brand Portuguese washing machine is still going well. €150 (about £100 then). If it fails we'll be in trouble as it's non-elechronic and we are off-grid. Inverters and circuits tend not to 'get on' :(
 

Digby

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Still off-topic, our 17 years old store brand Portuguese washing machine is still going well. €150 (about £100 then). If it fails we'll be in trouble as it's non-elechronic and we are off-grid. Inverters and circuits tend not to 'get on' :(
Perhaps make something with an old bicycle? Might need to be fit for the spin cycle though!
 

captainbeefheart

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What about a third option, you may have an intermittent problem with something else in your system and when you switch sources or whatever the problem just presents itself slightly differently.

You have test equipment correct? You don't need AP equipment to measure audible problems, if there is an audible problem the electrical properties will be off and measurable.
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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What about a third option, you may have an intermittent problem with something else in your system and when you switch sources or whatever the problem just presents itself slightly differently.

You have test equipment correct? You don't need AP equipment to measure audible problems, if there is an audible problem the electrical properties will be off and measurable.
Thank you for your suggestion.

For my most recent strange observations, for example this one:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-would-be-the-desired-clue.30752/post-1111935 ,

both setups have flat freq response. So, nothing obvious.

Also, it is interesting that using different headphones and different setups give different clues.....
See

Sources is always USB out from Windows 10 laptop.
 
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Thank you for your suggestion.

For my most recent strange observations, for example this one:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-would-be-the-desired-clue.30752/post-1111935 ,

both setups have flat freq response. So, nothing obvious.

Also, it is interesting that using different headphones and different setups give different clues.....
See

Sources is always USB out from Windows 10 laptop.
I don't see it as likely to change anything but, you could try a different source to rule out the possibility of that being an issue. The only other advice I can think to offer is to stick with whichever device bothers you least and avoid the brands in the future.
 

captainbeefheart

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Thank you for your suggestion.

For my most recent strange observations, for example this one:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-would-be-the-desired-clue.30752/post-1111935 ,

both setups have flat freq response. So, nothing obvious.

Also, it is interesting that using different headphones and different setups give different clues.....
See

Sources is always USB out from Windows 10 laptop.

Although headphones are still transducers they will have much less timing problems vs a full range loudspeaker that uses crossover networks. If the frequencies of interest are around the crossover frequencies you'll have the most phase shift there. Then the timing alignment of the drivers distance and frequency can hit your ears at different times. I personally do not think we can hear anything less than 3mS of a delay, in the industry when you get down low in time differences the effect is more of a "chorus" effect than a "delay" effect. So you can get tonality changes but it's not really perceived as a delay. Another thing to consider is output impedance and the control of the motor it's driving, the transducer needs control especially around the resonant frequencies of the driver.

Your spreadsheet results do tell me that you are getting different results with different headphones which makes the case being the transducers are the variables here and not so much the DAC/Amps. From my experience its' very difficult if not impossible to audibly review equipment like a DAC that distortion is so far below that of the transducer, a DAC with distortion of -120db is literally a million times lower than the signal, where a transducer will be say 1% THD or -40db, that's a HUGE difference and the problems will always be dominated by the transducer, which is proven by the test results.
 

Loathecliff

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Perhaps make something with an old bicycle? Might need to be fit for the spin cycle though!
We've been light years ahead of that idea since 2003 :)..... Hush hush... national security :rolleyes:
Spinning rarely required in this climate :cool:
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Although headphones are still transducers they will have much less timing problems vs a full range loudspeaker that uses crossover networks. If the frequencies of interest are around the crossover frequencies you'll have the most phase shift there. Then the timing alignment of the drivers distance and frequency can hit your ears at different times. I personally do not think we can hear anything less than 3mS of a delay, in the industry when you get down low in time differences the effect is more of a "chorus" effect than a "delay" effect. So you can get tonality changes but it's not really perceived as a delay. Another thing to consider is output impedance and the control of the motor it's driving, the transducer needs control especially around the resonant frequencies of the driver.

Your spreadsheet results do tell me that you are getting different results with different headphones which makes the case being the transducers are the variables here and not so much the DAC/Amps. From my experience its' very difficult if not impossible to audibly review equipment like a DAC that distortion is so far below that of the transducer, a DAC with distortion of -120db is literally a million times lower than the signal, where a transducer will be say 1% THD or -40db, that's a HUGE difference and the problems will always be dominated by the transducer, which is proven by the test results.
Please note that it is not just about the headphones. When using the same headphones, there are still differences between dac+hpa combos.

This is an example of differences heard due to DAC+HPA combo, when using same headphones:

 

captainbeefheart

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Please note that it is not just about the headphones. When using the same headphones, there are still differences between dac+hpa combos.

This is an example of differences heard due to DAC+HPA combo, when using same headphones:


I don't know.......to be completely honest I'm really having a hard time with the notion you're hearing a difference between the sync track and the delay tracks of anything less than 5mS, the vast majority of people aren't even going to hear 10mS. But 1mS or 2mS? I'm very skeptical. I'd be likely to wager it's a human perception issue. Mind you I am not calling you a liar, I truly believe you think you are hearing differences but it's a construct of your perception and not actually present in the real physical content of information.


Humans don’t really perceive very small latencies. Depending on the signal, delays of less than 10-12 milliseconds (ms—thousandths of a second) are not usually enough to be noticed. If a performer is hearing the signal he/she is creating with under 10-12 ms latency, they’ll probably just unconsciously compensate for any subconsciously perceived lag, and adapt their musical timing to be able to play in good sync with other parts.


To put this in context, there’s always some acoustic latency present when musicians play together in a room, and they normally adapt without thinking about it. Sound waves in the air travel at a fixed rate of around 1 ms per foot. So if two players are performing acoustically in a room and they’re 8 feet apart, by the time player A hears player B’s part, it’s 8 ms later than when player B heard it, and vice versa, yet they’re able to play together in good musical time. Fortunately our hearing is not that acutely sensitive to variations in timing that small. We do perceive them subconsciously as normal human imperfection, but from a musical perspective, they don’t interfere with being able to maintain tight timing, and laying down a solid groove. Being a classically trained musician myself I can attest to this. I'll go back to delays <5mS, this is getting to the point of not perceivable, down to 1mS-2mS I will go ahead and say it's not perceivable at all. 5mS is questionably possible, so when I have someone saying they are repeatably hearing delay between 1mS and then 2mS I'm of course going to be very skeptical, no offense. I have put these delay times (1-2mS) into effect with instruments both live and to a recording and not one person has even heard a difference, getting up near 5mS I'd say it's plausible but still very very difficult. It's not until I get to at least 50mS and more likely 100mS is where they start to hear the delay effect and most are not happy with it as it's still very subtle. I'd say the average delay setting I use is between 200mS and 800mS, the former being a quick delay and the latter being a longer delay. As I said most musicians start to hear it around 50-100mS but it's more of a "chorus" effect and not a "delay" effect. So depending on what "effect" they want I choose the times of delay, 10-50mS is more of a "chorus" and over 100mS is starting to be an actual "delay" effect. Some of these musicians have VERY good ears, and if they can't hear a 2mS delay at all I'm not very confident the rest of us will.

No offense, it's an interesting discussion but I'm just trying to be realistic with what I have experienced in my time in both an engineer designing analog effects and amplifier equipment and being a musician.




 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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I don't know.......to be completely honest I'm really having a hard time with the notion you're hearing a difference between the sync track and the delay tracks of anything less than 5mS, the vast majority of people aren't even going to hear 10mS. But 1mS or 2mS? I'm very skeptical. I'd be likely to wager it's a human perception issue. Mind you I am not calling you a liar, I truly believe you think you are hearing differences but it's a construct of your perception and not actually present in the real physical content of information.


Humans don’t really perceive very small latencies. Depending on the signal, delays of less than 10-12 milliseconds (ms—thousandths of a second) are not usually enough to be noticed. If a performer is hearing the signal he/she is creating with under 10-12 ms latency, they’ll probably just unconsciously compensate for any subconsciously perceived lag, and adapt their musical timing to be able to play in good sync with other parts.


To put this in context, there’s always some acoustic latency present when musicians play together in a room, and they normally adapt without thinking about it. Sound waves in the air travel at a fixed rate of around 1 ms per foot. So if two players are performing acoustically in a room and they’re 8 feet apart, by the time player A hears player B’s part, it’s 8 ms later than when player B heard it, and vice versa, yet they’re able to play together in good musical time. Fortunately our hearing is not that acutely sensitive to variations in timing that small. We do perceive them subconsciously as normal human imperfection, but from a musical perspective, they don’t interfere with being able to maintain tight timing, and laying down a solid groove. Being a classically trained musician myself I can attest to this. I'll go back to delays <5mS, this is getting to the point of not perceivable, down to 1mS-2mS I will go ahead and say it's not perceivable at all. 5mS is questionably possible, so when I have someone saying they are repeatably hearing sonic differences between 1mS and then 2mS I'm of course going to be very skeptical, no offense. I have put these delay times (1-2mS) into effect with instruments both live and to a recording and not one person has even heard a difference, getting up near 5mS I'd say it's plausible but still very very difficult. It's not until I get to at least 50mS and more likely 100mS is where they start to hear the delay effect and most are not happy with it as it's still very subtle. I'd say the average delay setting I use is between 200mS and 800mS, the former being a quick delay and the latter being a longer delay. As I said most musicians start to hear it around 50-100mS but it's more of a "chorus" effect and not a "delay" effect. So depending on what "effect" they want I choose the times of delay, 10-50mS is more of a "chorus" and over 100mS is starting to be an actual "delay" effect. Some of these musicians have VERY good ears, and if they can't hear a 2mS delay at all I'm not very confident the rest of us will.

No offense, it's an interesting discussion but I'm just trying to be realistic with what I have experienced in my time in both an engineer designing analog effects and amplifier equipment and being a musician.




Maybe you are correct when actually playing live music. But many are passing the online blind timing tests, from 5ms to 1ms. For many, it gave tonality change clues instead of sensing timing change, thus very easy to pass.

Did you see this thread yet? Many are posting their blind tests results screenshot there. So, not just me who can pass the tests.
; )

Even Amir said he passed 2ms with cheap headset.
: )

 
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RayDunzl

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I don't know.......to be completely honest I'm really having a hard time with the notion you're hearing a difference between the sync track and the delay tracks of anything less than 5mS

5ms is approximately equivalent to having one speaker of a stereo pair 5 feet more distant than the closer one.

Delaying with the DAC, 1ms is obvious here at the ranch. (It has 0.02ms steps on the delay)

1651540948058.png


Even deaf me can hear that...

Sometimes I'll use the delay to "fix" the imaging when I nap on the couch, and my head is 2.68ms off center.
 
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captainbeefheart

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Maybe you are correct when actually playing live music. But many are passing the online blind timing tests, from 5ms to 1ms. For many, it gave tonality change clues instead of sensing timing change, thus very easy to pass.

Did you see this thread yet? Many are posting their blind tests results screenshot there. So, not just me who can pass the tests.
; )

Even Amir said he passed 2ms with cheap headset.
: )


Yes as I said it's more of a "chorus" effect vs a "delay" when you get down under specific time", and so it would be described as a tonal change not so much a delay.

Sorry I didn't want to say there is no audible change in general, I was saying that someone hearing what they would describe as a delay under a specific time is just not really possible, at most it will have a "chorus" effect which sounds a little fuller. Even "tonal" change isn't the best way to describe it as I define tone as more of a frequency response change, a change where certain frequency ranges are boosted/attenuated.
 

captainbeefheart

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5ms is approximately equivalent to having one speaker of a stereo pair 5 feet more distant than the closer one.

Yes but the effect of placing speakers at different distances away from your perspective, say a 5 foot difference, the result will be one speaker louder than the other. You are not going to hear a delay where one speaker is audible and then the other right after it. The two speakers are still sensed as "in time" but at different volumes/sound pressures. Does that make sense?
 
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Pdxwayne

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Yes as I said it's more of a "chorus" effect vs a "delay" when you get down under specific time", and so it would be described as a tonal change not so much a delay.

Sorry I didn't want to say there is no audible change in general, I was saying that someone hearing what they would describe as a delay under a specific time is just not really possible, at most it will have a "chorus" effect which sounds a little fuller. Even "tonal" change isn't the best way to describe it as I define tone as more of a frequency response change, a change where certain frequency ranges are boosted/attenuated.

Unfortunatly, you will need to use my exact chain to know what I am talking about.....it was like an extra click kind of clue, different than tonal change.....Even then, you might not hear it as your hearing sensitivity might not be the same.

So, I guess no point further argue about it since I can't really prove to you what I heard inside my head. All I can show you is I passed the blind tests. Did you try any of the tests yourself? If so, how was it? What was your chain?
 

captainbeefheart

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Unfortunatly, you will need to use my exact chain to know what I am talking about.....it was like an extra click kind of clue, different than tonal change.....Even then, you might not hear it as your hearing sensitivity might not be the same.

So, I guess no point further argue about it since I can't really prove to you what I heard inside my head. All I can show you is I passed the blind tests. Did you try any of the tests yourself? If so, how was it? What was your chain?

Not trying to argue, just want to get to the bottom of the issue just like you.

Like anything else it's pointless talking over just one theory so let's move forward and assume your hearing is accurate in that there is an anomalous issue with the signal. What could cause it? Given the content of the material, percussive instruments, I wonder if some square wave testing would give us some insight into what's happening. I don't believe I have seen any reviews yet where Amir covers square wave testing and stability testing. Shooting various square wave frequencies of different amplitudes gives us great insight, we can see things like frequency response issues and stability issues, the latter can even be motivated by adding some capacitance to the load like the real world and see how the device changes it's behavior. You could very well possibly be hearing something that the hi-hat is triggering with the device like overshoot and ringing. The step response of audio devices is pretty important if you ask me and is what the difference between great engineering and mediocre engineering.

I'll try and think of more issues that would account for the sound quality problems you are hearing but it's late and I'm retiring for the night.
 
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