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Bait and switch issue? [POLL]

Is there a bait and switch issue? (you can select up to 2 choices)

  • Yes

  • No

  • Maybe Yes

  • Maybe No

  • Others

  • I would like Amir to do an ASR gathering to further investigate


Results are only viewable after voting.
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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You have a concern that I do not. So if you want something done here, you should do the gathering and fund such a study. I have so much to test that I don't see dealing with your doubt being a good use of my time. I can be bought however. :) I will charge $200 per device to do this secondary testing. Get me as many as you like with a check for that amount (each) and I will test them all.
Nice. How much would it cost to do a blind test hosted by you?
 

Jimbob54

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Nice. How much would it cost to do a blind test hosted by you?
What is it you want to prove?

1.Different units of the same device measure differently

2. You can detect audible differences between 2 units of the same device

3.You want validation that you can hear differences between 2 different devices that existing measurements suggest should be transparent.

I think it's 3 and I'm beginning to think this is yet another thread about your hearing abilities far more than concerns about anything manufacturers are doing.
 

Katji

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Why do I need to do blind tests? What is wrong with your ears?
I vaguely remember a "quotable quote" somewhere, maybe someone's sig line, something like "There is nothing wrong with your ears, the problem is elsewhere..."
 

Katji

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My issues is more about sensing differences when none should be sensed.
(1) The probable reason for that has been referred many times - many many many - and you have seen it.
(2) and the idea that various manufacturers providing gear for testing are or might be providing units with selected or superior quality electronic components.
 

RHO

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I answered "maybe yes" because I would think it naive to assume there will never be a manufacturer picking an exceptionally well measuring sample and sending that specific one in for review. It will present itself nicely in the charts. And looking at the top of the SINAD rankings, half a dB could move you up or down a few spots.
Will it make an audible difference if your specific item would measure 1dB worse because it was not picked as a golden sample? I very much doubt it.
Will some manufacturers swap components for cheaper ones during multiple production runs? Not unlikely.
Will that make an audible difference? Maybe. Likely not.
Will it have an effect on product lifetime/reliability? Maybe. Depends. But Amir is not testing for that, so why would a manufacturer care about it when sending in a sample.
So, I think "No" would be a naive answer.
Does it matter much with regards to Amirs reviews and their validity. I wouldn't think so. As long as you are aware those SINAD rankings are not the absolute best and only metric to make a purchase decision. 118dB SINAD or 121dB ... don't matter much to your ears.
 

pjug

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I don't have good enough measuring equipments to know for sure. Thus would love Amir to do a gathering to further investigate.
I'm not trying to be snippy saying this, but I think the best thing for you would be to get some measuring equipment. The E1DA Cosmos ADC is really good.
 

Shadrach

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i'm slowly but evermore surely getting annoyed the crap out of me by the fact that whenever something of chinese origin gets a negative comment it turns into a question of racism
If someone quotes me I assume they would like a response.
Rather than waste my time in what may end up as a pointless debate I'll point out an option that should mean I and others won't have to read about your irritation, or my responses to it and everyone can get on with discussing the topic.
Could the Chinese manufacturer(s) (I wonder if Gustard, SMSL, Topping, etc. are using the same general contractor) knowingly substitute lower quality and/or out of spec components for certain runs?
Could the manufacturer(s) (I wonder if Gustard, SMSL, Topping, etc. are using the same general contractor) knowingly substitute lower quality and/or out of spec components for certain runs?

It's really very easy.:)
 
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I'm not trying to be snippy saying this, but I think the best thing for you would be to get some measuring equipment. The E1DA Cosmos ADC is really good.
I think it sounds fine. The E1DA is reasonably costed. It would be cheaper and more expedient than sending units. Costs would quickly add up even if testing was offered for the cost of shipping both ways.
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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Why do I need to do blind tests? What is wrong with your ears?
Not you. Me!
; )
But I don't mind you join too.


For example, see https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-would-be-the-desired-clue.30752/post-1111935

I am very curious about the why.

If I pay you $800 to measure my Topping combo and Gustard combo and they all tested fine, using your measurements method, I would like you to work with me to perform blind tests. I will be the one who do the blind tests and you are the helper to switch. I will try to tell them apart by running online blind timng tests.

Why I want you to work with me? Because even I spend the time and money doing it at home, many people will still doubt.

However, if you already think transparent (as measured and recommended by you) HPA headphones amp can sound different, then we can stop here and not wasting our time.
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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What is it you want to prove?

1.Different units of the same device measure differently

2. You can detect audible differences between 2 units of the same device

3.You want validation that you can hear differences between 2 different devices that existing measurements suggest should be transparent.

I think it's 3 and I'm beginning to think this is yet another thread about your hearing abilities far more than concerns about anything manufacturers are doing.
Haha, it is not about proving my hearing ability.

I am genuinely curious about my first sentence in my first post, especially after I did lots of online timing tests using different chains. For example, see https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-would-be-the-desired-clue.30752/post-1111935

I am sure you can also tell a different using my chains.

I wonder why? One or more of my items not working as it should, due to "bait and switch"?
 
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RayDunzl

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I wouldn't worry about it.
 

RayDunzl

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My ears aren't powerful enough to tell the difference between things that should sound the same, or, sometimes, even things that are different and shouldn't sound the same.

I try to avoid posting in "Can you hear this?" threads, but something got the better of me this time.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it.

Carry on!
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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I think it sounds fine. The E1DA is reasonably costed. It would be cheaper and more expedient than sending units. Costs would quickly add up even if testing was offered for the cost of shipping both ways.
I have done that with a decent ADC on one DAC. The DAC seems fine sinad wise and freq response wise. I have an overly long thread about it.

See https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...clean-sounding-as-the-other.24778/post-838432

At the end, after all the time and money spent, the "why" is still a mystery....
 

Digby

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I have the same trouble telling the difference between vinyl recordings done through my RME and the actual record. Sometimes I think I can hear the difference, others not, it is a very close run race.

Because I am lazy and haven't topped and tailed some recordings, I have been in another room and, on occasion, rushed to lift the needle at the end of the record, to find it was a digital recording playing. Maybe that should have settled the question for me, but I don't know...
 

Dialectic

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I still want a Bosch if possible.
: )

Since many in USA are affected by supplies chain issues and we both suffered from labor shortage issue, I can imagine manufacturers in China (especially with their 0 covid case policy) are also facing very bad supplies chain and labor issues.

I can also understand that honest China manufacturers had to make difficult decision to substitute good parts with not so optimal parts due to reasons mentioned above, and not due to lacks of ethics.
If you want a Bosch but can't find one, you can get a Thermador, which is a dressed-up, premium Bosch. We just got one when we learned that the Miele model we wanted likely will not be in stock until..2024.
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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(1) The probable reason for that has been referred many times - many many many - and you have seen it.
(2) and the idea that various manufacturers providing gear for testing are or might be providing units with selected or superior quality electronic components.
For your #1....

So far no answers provided for multiple issues I found. Since you have seen many reasons, maybe you are able to provide the answers?

Please look at the links at the bottom of my first post. Other than maybe the x16 0.2db thread, all other thread still awaiting reasons. Well....something other than evething just "imagination" and "bias".....
 
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Pdxwayne

Pdxwayne

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If you want a Bosch but can't find one, you can get a Thermador, which is a dressed-up, premium Bosch. We just got one when we learned that the Miele model we wanted likely will not be in stock until..2024.
I wonder how long the new Whirlpool will last....

My prior one is also Whirlpool and lasted about 17 years before it quit.

Bosch or Thermador most likely will be next when the new one quits.
: )
 
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abdo123

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I think y'all should stop gaslighting them specially when they have repeatedly shown both measurements and blind tests to support their findings.

It's very clear that Amir's review is usually an hour or two at most of testing and sometimes things slip through the cracks that users discover after months of use.

If you ask me who gives a fuck? Only a fraction of members here pay for SOTA performance across the entire playback chain, and even a smaller fraction test their equipment thoroughly. This is why we don't hear those stories often. In reality sample to sample variation is huge and Amir has recieved several faulty units that were never published or their reviews were completely scrapped.

Either way the gaslighting is honestly gross and disrespectful.
 
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