• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

AV123 / GR Research X-Voce Speaker Review

Rate this speaker:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 281 93.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 10 3.3%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 2 0.7%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 8 2.7%

  • Total voters
    301

Rick Sykora

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
3,417
Likes
6,835
Location
Stow, Ohio USA
True. But I was rather wondering about how his upgrade kits for various speakers would change the response. If he doesn't measure it, it's a complete guesswork as how the response would be below 200 Hz with his kits.
I mean, it's still guesswork above 200 Hz because of his non-critical workflow to unveil driver faults etc..

Fully agree. One might hope he is more careful about the quality of his own drivers, but at this point, some proof is needed.

Aside from the OB aspect though, the bass issue here is pretty clearly the crossover. Am confident the fix is just a matter of replacing a couple of parts. Most notably, the iron core inductor that Danny so readily complains about in other's speakers!
 

Futility

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 31, 2019
Messages
48
Likes
112
Location
TX
...the fix is just a matter of replacing a couple of parts. Most notably, the iron core inductor that Danny so readily complains about in other's speakers!

Well, to be fair, I'm pretty sure the iron core inductor was a cost-cutting decision on the AV123's part.

Though Danny did sell plenty of those prebuilt crossovers at a discount when purchased the leftover stock after AV123 bust.
 

DanTheMan

Active Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
282
Likes
425
Correct me if I’m wrong here, but it looks like the woofer enclosures need enlarged also. It would be nice to measure the woofers on their own without any passive components in line. It’s hard to imagine that they could be as far off as they look. My first subwoofer box when I was a kid outperformed that. No matter what, that crossover is seriously incorrect. Even Klipsch couldn’t mess up a crossover that bad (kidding).
 

DanTheMan

Active Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
282
Likes
425
He really should have done that before the design was finalized. What excuse could he have? I mean where is the QC/QA if this wasn’t how it was designed? Doubly so after he saw the way it measured in that AC thread. Nonetheless, he really should offer a free fix for this. Maybe he should cryogenically treat it as well (joking/not joking).
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,188
Likes
232,012
Location
Seattle Area
This was posted under Danny's latest video:

@tommyK7282

3 days ago
Audio science review just did a hatchet job on an old center channel speaker you sell



@dannyrichie9743

3 days ago
Yeah, I heard about that. I haven't seen it, and don't care. Amir messaged me wanting to see some of our measured responses and he showed me his measurements on it. Clearly the outer woofers were wired with the wrong polarity. I pointed it out, but I doubt he'll mention it. Everything they do is a hack job to someone.
 

HarmonicTHD

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2022
Messages
3,326
Likes
4,808
Well I guess he might be disappointed when he actually reads your review. You not only mentioned the problem, you even fixed it.

Yet it can also be part of his strategy of convoluting the facts. Wouldn’t be the first time.

Oh well. Danny being Danny.
 

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
4,683
Likes
4,529
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
This was posted under Danny's latest video:

@tommyK7282

3 days ago
Audio science review just did a hatchet job on an old center channel speaker you sell



@dannyrichie9743

3 days ago
Yeah, I heard about that. I haven't seen it, and don't care. Amir messaged me wanting to see some of our measured responses and he showed me his measurements on it. Clearly the outer woofers were wired with the wrong polarity. I pointed it out, but I doubt he'll mention it. Everything they do is a hack job to someone.
:facepalm:

Funny how a wrongly wired woofer is suddenly @amirm's problem
Well I guess he might be disappointed when he actually reads your review. You not only mentioned the problem, you even fixed it.

Yet it can also be part of his strategy of convoluting the facts. Wouldn’t be the first time.

Oh well. Danny being Danny.
We know Danny's attitude:
giphy (1).gif


:oops::facepalm:
 

Rick Sykora

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
3,417
Likes
6,835
Location
Stow, Ohio USA
This was posted under Danny's latest video:

@tommyK7282

3 days ago
Audio science review just did a hatchet job on an old center channel speaker you sell



@dannyrichie9743

3 days ago
Yeah, I heard about that. I haven't seen it, and don't care. Amir messaged me wanting to see some of our measured responses and he showed me his measurements on it. Clearly the outer woofers were wired with the wrong polarity. I pointed it out, but I doubt he'll mention it. Everything they do is a hack job to someone.

His reaction is predictable. When others confronted him on Jamo speaker, he denied at first. His only action so far has been to remove the upgrade kit from sale. The next move is his on this one. Not deciding can still be a choice he makes even if the facts are against him. It is not the choice most of us would make, but he is clearly in the subjectivist camp and so can expect that technical facts may be ignored.

Happy Thanksgiving!
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,058
Likes
17,423
Location
Netherlands
So, I think just about figured it out. It's not perfect, but close (enough):
1700741172084.png

looks familiar?

The crossover is this:
1700741259542.png

The two cap values were visible in the photos, the bipolar looks small for a 480uF, but I don't know the voltage, so could be. The 30 mH coil is tricky, but may be the reason for an iron core one. But this thing is 27mH:

1700741396045.png

So might not be too far-fetched. Expensive little bugger :oops:!
 
Last edited:

cavedriver

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jul 10, 2020
Messages
595
Likes
560
Location
Maryland, USA
Entertaining take down of another voodoo speaker, but it would be nice to review one or more of his more strongly marketed products. People could always say, well, the LGK is ok because it's so cheap, or this speaker is a 12 year old design and not current, etc... I'm frequently surprised by people that come across on other forums with stuff like, "you should check out GR Research, Danny is the real deal, he skewers people's sacred cows," to which I usually have to point them to this site and be like, "just the opposite".
 

DanTheMan

Active Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
282
Likes
425
So, I think just about figured it out. It's not perfect, but close (enough):
View attachment 328746
looks familiar?

The crossover is this:
View attachment 328747
The two cap values were visible in the photos, the bipolar looks small for a 480uF, but I don't know the voltage, so could be. The 30 mH coil is tricky, but may be the reason for an iron core one. But this thing is 27mH:

View attachment 328748
So might not be too far-fetched. Expensive little bugger :oops:!
Brilliant! What happens if you remove the 480uf from the woofers?
 

voodooless

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Messages
10,058
Likes
17,423
Location
Netherlands
Brilliant! What happens if you remove the 480uf from the woofers?
If I make it smaller, the impedance rises towards the low-end, and the peak shifts above 100 Hz. If I remove the cap, there is a bit less output below 80 Hz. Overall the difference isn't that big. I would have expected a bigger impact.

But I'm done tweaking values until it matches.. Boxsim is way too slow for this, it takes about 10 seconds for every change.. I really need to learn new software :oops:
 

fpitas

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 7, 2022
Messages
9,885
Likes
14,134
Location
Northern Virginia, USA
I don't know sometimes how people who sell crap whilst claiming it's fantastic can sleep at night. :facepalm:
Hugging bundles of cash, most likely.
 

DanTheMan

Active Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
282
Likes
425
If I make it smaller, the impedance rises towards the low-end, and the peak shifts above 100 Hz. If I remove the cap, there is a bit less output below 80 Hz. Overall the difference isn't that big. I would have expected a bigger impact.

But I'm done tweaking values until it matches.. Boxsim is way too slow for this, it takes about 10 seconds for every change.. I really need to learn new software :oops:
I was hoping to find something simple for the original owner. It’s been 14 years since I designed a speaker and I never did a 3-way (crossover), so it’s a bit beyond my level of understanding for a simple correction. That was my best guess to get something reasonable, though not great, quick and fairly easy. If I was the owner, I’d hate to start over because the parts are going to be expensive, I wouldn’t feel right about selling it to someone “as is”, and that’s a large load for the trash. Anyway, thanks for humoring my whims. I appreciate it.
 

bennybbbx

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
691
Likes
124
Location
germany
this speaker is for more or less nice o_O to hear black saddat heaven and hell. song mostly play the bass note at ~80 hz . on this frequency this speaker have lots boost. then additional many rooms boost this 80 hz bass too. so i think this can really sound as hell massive bass and for the neighbours . And even more "better" use a bass cover. here bass is louder. here a version with tabs . If you hear some notes louder your speaker in room is not linear . the hell bass riff begin at 0:26
 

audiofooled

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 1, 2021
Messages
515
Likes
576
In all fairness, there are some frequencies where this speaker has the potential to sound just about right. Just not always fit for the application...

 

bconline

Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2023
Messages
6
Likes
25
Hi. I'm the guy who did the extensive measurements of the X-Statik in 2019 that @amirm mentions in the review. I can tell you first hand that no measuring or golden ear was needed to know that something was very wrong with the bass. 30 seconds of casual listening made it obvious.

After all the testing, discussion, and experimentation, I attributed the problem to a bad batch of woofers that were out of spec. I did this becuase...
  1. I thought I was the only person with this problem
  2. I did not know enough (and still do not know enough) about crossover design to have any other explaination
  3. It was a graceful way to say it's a bad speaker without saying it was a bad design
However, having read this thread...
  1. I know that #1 is not true. It seems that many (all?) people who have this design (X-Voce and X-Statik) suffer from the same bass problem.
  2. Other posters on this thread, who DO know enough about crossover design, have an explanation for the peak that is inherent in the design.
  3. Maybe it IS a bad design.
 

bconline

Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2023
Messages
6
Likes
25
Back in 2019 I asked a technical question on the other forum and never got an answer. Maybe one of you can educate me. :) Below are nearfield measurements of the woofers with no crossover (blue) and going through the crossover (red). The green traces are with a crossover mod the Danny suggested (remove a capacitor). You can ignore those.
Picture1.png

My question is: Is it possible for a crossover circuit to create a peak that is higher than the raw driver response? I had assumed that because crossovers are passive they cannot add energy at any frequency. But @kdp mentions "ringing" and @Toni Mas mentions impedance trouble with low crossover points.

Could it be that Danny tried to create a generic 200hz crossover, but the physics ended up creating a 100hz crossover?
 
Top Bottom