Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

[lessthanjoey]

More likely, the terms of the licensing agreement for integrators includes an NDA that doesn't lift until after the exclusivity period with StormAudio has run its course.

Which is supposed to be now, right?

 

[ban25]

Which is supposed to be now, right?

This month, supposedly. So, the exclusivity may expire Nov 1?

 

[Music707]

This month, supposedly. So, the exclusivity may expire Nov 1?

According to Matt Trinklein of StormAudio, Dirac ART was to be exclusive to his company until October, 1st.

If you want to check for yourself, take a look into the following video at approx. 7:55:

 

[seedragon]

In an interview posted 8 days ago, Mathias Johansson of Dirac said, “Storm Audio is our exclusive partner until October. Right now, I cannot disclose [the other companies], but there are others in line.”

At 25:00

Wondering why there’s no word yet. Maybe the exclusivity terms stipulated that the other companies wouldn’t see the implementation specs until October, which means they will have nothing to announce until they confirm that they can and will implement ART.

 

[juliangst]

I don’t think it’s only about exclusivity.
Implementing ART into Marantz, Denon and other AVRs isn’t trivial and the computing power of those AVRs might not be capable for ART on all 11.4 channels that some Denons and Marantzes have

 

[GXAlan]

Wondering why there’s no word yet. Maybe the exclusivity terms stipulated that the other companies wouldn’t see the implementation specs until October, which means they will have nothing to announce until they confirm that they can and will implement ART.

Might not be October 1. Monolith had said they have an alpha firmware with it working though.

 

[Magnus]

The Monoprice guy reported on AVS he hopes to have ART available for beta testers for the HTP-1 in a few weeks.

 

[rana_kirti]

is any avr confirmed to get Dirac ART?

 

[lessthanjoey]

is any avr confirmed to get Dirac ART?

No official announcements yet. I'm anxiously awaiting them too! HTP-1 + amps, while cheaper than Storm, is certainly nowhere near as cheap as it coming to something like the X3800H or even Integra-8.4, etc.

 

[Curvature]

Might have to expect some cascade of exclusivity or things like it before it hits PCs.

 

[Inertia]

I bought an AV-10 with the hopes that it would get it - will be real disappointed in the price point of this AVR if they can't do ART and cheaper priced ones like monoprice monolith can. Please pleasantly surprise me D&M!

 

[ban25]

I bought an AV-10 with the hopes that it would get it - will be real disappointed in the price point of this AVR if they can't do ART and cheaper priced ones like monoprice monolith can. Please pleasantly surprise me D&M!

There have been strong rumors of ART for AV10, including unofficial statements by Marantz representatives, so I would not worry too much.

 

[Magnus]

What is the scope of DIRAC ART? Is it limited to a small area around the MLP or does it consider other seating locations in the room as well? Attempting to cancel out room modes before they even form sounds great, but if it only eliminates the ones affecting the MLP, the rest of the room might still be a mess.

 

[abdo123]

What is the scope of DIRAC ART? Is it limited to a small area around the MLP or does it consider other seating locations in the room as well? Attempting to cancel out room modes before they even form sounds great, but if it only eliminates the ones affecting the MLP, the rest of the room might still be a mess.

I like to believe that it is much more forgiving in that way compared to traditional DSP because it doesn’t boost dips.

Whether it’s gonna turn your room to an anechoic one is obviously a stretch.

 

[dlaloum]

I don’t think it’s only about exclusivity.
Implementing ART into Marantz, Denon and other AVRs isn’t trivial and the computing power of those AVRs might not be capable for ART on all 11.4 channels that some Denons and Marantzes have

As demonstrated on the Storm platform, when implementing ART, you can choose how many speakers to allocate as "helpers"...

So in addition to the normal Dirac Target curves which apply to all speakers, there is the allocation of speakers to the "helper" role - and the smaller Storm AVP, is apparently limited to 10 helpers, due to processing constraints.

Once this is clear, then we can make some educated guesses...

1) Dirac have told us that if a processor can handle DLBC then it can handle ART... so that gives us an immediate indication on which AVR/AVP's will be sufficiently capable
2) Manufacturers can limit the number of "helper" speakers, so as to limit the processing load
3) We already have multiple user reviews of systems with fewer speakers (down to 2.1) showing that substantial benefits acrue from ART even when using fewer speakers
4) I would be very happy to see a setup limited to something like 7 helpers, perhaps at a more economical price point...?

Key thing is - an AVR/AVP demonstrably does not need to be capable of using 11.4 channels with all of them as "Helpers" - and at least one model from StormAudio, demonstrates that by being limited to 10 helper channels, even when using 16 channels.

 

[NegativeEntropy]

As demonstrated on the Storm platform, when implementing ART, you can choose how many speakers to allocate as "helpers"...

So in addition to the normal Dirac Target curves which apply to all speakers, there is the allocation of speakers to the "helper" role - and the smaller Storm AVP, is apparently limited to 10 helpers, due to processing constraints.

Once this is clear, then we can make some educated guesses...

1) Dirac have told us that if a processor can handle DLBC then it can handle ART... so that gives us an immediate indication on which AVR/AVP's will be sufficiently capable
2) Manufacturers can limit the number of "helper" speakers, so as to limit the processing load
3) We already have multiple user reviews of systems with fewer speakers (down to 2.1) showing that substantial benefits acrue from ART even when using fewer speakers
4) I would be very happy to see a setup limited to something like 7 helpers, perhaps at a more economical price point...?

Key thing is - an AVR/AVP demonstrably does not need to be capable of using 11.4 channels with all of them as "Helpers" - and at least one model from StormAudio, demonstrates that by being limited to 10 helper channels, even when using 16 channels.

In addition to limiting the number of support speakers, as I recall, there's also an internal limit on the total number of filters, or perhaps max filters per speaker (can't remember which, and frankly can't find the forum post I seem to recall) - so that's another tunable if I am correct.

That said, processing is only getting cheaper with time, so at least for this OG Dirac ART, which is capped at 150 Hz ("F-support high" - another potential tunable), I don't think the bar is that high for the needed processing for at least a modest number of speakers.

 

[juliangst]

and the smaller Storm AVP, is apparently limited to 10 helpers, due to processing constraints.

Are the better processors like the elite mk3 unlimited?

I also wonder what speakers would be ideal as 'helpers'.
Subs in the corners are probably the most useful helpers but capable ceiling atmos speakers could also help a lot with vertical room modes.

 

[Magnus]

I would imagine anything with deep bass might help.

I've got 5 PSB tower speakers (L/C/R plus rear surrounds) with response to 30Hz. The rest of my PSB speakers (all 16 of them including 10 overhead speakers) are rated between 50Hz and 60Hz. They might help in the above 80Hz range, but not much else.

I was thinking the 5 towers plus 3 subs for helpers using the 9.1.4 configuration on a Monoprice HTP-1 with added reverse phase Scatmos using two Marantz NR1403 AVRs for 4 extracted overheads giving 8 total on the ceiling (Heights + Tops) along with a time delayed copy of Rear Heights from the Mini-DSP that's reversing the phase inputs to make Surround Heights for Auro-3D. I'd need two more AVRs to extract SS#2 (or just make an arrayed copy) and I'd be all set for 11.3.10 with the Top Middle outputs not needed so they could be used for 2 extra sub outputs, giving 3 total for ART to use.

Welcome to Franken ArtMos.

Limitations would include no DIRAC for the extra ss#2 speakers (or seen as an array instead if copied), extra ceiling overheads and surround heights. The extracted overheads would have Audyssey available via the NR1403. They're the closest to the seats anyway and so would have the least room interactions.

I don't currently use Audyssey on my Marantz AVR above Schroeder anyway (PSB are +/- 1.5dB so Audyssey could really only hurt it above there). I'm only really concerned to about 250Hz or so based on REW curves.

 

[dlaloum]

Are the better processors like the elite mk3 unlimited?

I also wonder what speakers would be ideal as 'helpers'.
Subs in the corners are probably the most useful helpers but capable ceiling atmos speakers could also help a lot with vertical room modes.

Yep - although I believe they are 16 channel, so the limit is 16...

In terms of what speakers are ideal - ART is limited to 150Hz, so speakers with a response from say 15Hz to 150Hz would be the "perfect" helper...

In reality speakers covering the response range from 30Hz to 150Hz would be ideal - which is most full range speakers, and many subs...
Of course many subs hit their limitations at around 100Hz... (mostly those with more extension below 20Hz) - so there will be compromises!

Most of the benefits are in the 40Hz to 100Hz frequencies.... and loads of speakers can cover that range!

 

[Music707]

Yep - although I believe they are 16 channel, so the limit is 16...

You are underesimating their capabilities by a fair bit. This is what StormAudio tells about the ISP Elite MK3:

"Up to 32 home cinema speakers can be magnified by the latest Dirac Live Active Room Treatment module. "

The Core16 is strictly limited to 16 channels.

In terms of what speakers are ideal - ART is limited to 150Hz, so speakers with a response from say 15Hz to 150Hz would be the "perfect" helper...

In reality speakers covering the response range from 30Hz to 150Hz would be ideal - which is most full range speakers, and many subs...

This is correct for the time being. IIRC the ART software version given to beta testers had a higher (adjustable) limit and StormAudio seemed to sympathise with a higher limit as well. Directivity issues seem to have stopped a public rollout currently. But it should not be out of the question that sooner or later ART may work up to a frquency limit higher than 150Hz. In that case subs might start to run out of steam in the then higher ART frequency range. (But still their corrective abilities may be useful because the ART corrections not necessariliy require a very high output volume.)

Most of the benefits are in the 40Hz to 100Hz frequencies.... and loads of speakers can cover that range!

Absolutely. And although having full range speakers may be kind of a safe bet, I am not convinced that you cannot have excellent results with a number of bookshelf speakers in the mix.