A thought that could improve the acceptance of active speakers

[Steve81]

My apologies if this has been discussed already. My question is, why don't we have the equivalent of PoE for active loudspeakers? Removing the need for a power cord would simplify setup dramatically, meeting, or conceivably even exceeding what can be done with conventional AVRs and passive loudspeakers now. Thoughts?

Edit to the OP: For those who haven't read the thread, this is where things are at now, after discussing issues with PoE in particular:

This concept, as I envision it, would be directly from a central hub acting as a processor to the speaker. Scale down the voltage to meet regulatory requirements, and transcode to a codec readily decoded on the other end, similar to how my phone > earbuds connection transcodes to AAC over a Bluetooth carrier. Powerline seems to fit the bill perfectly for this.

As I see it, this solution could allow active speakers to directly replace AVRs/passives in the market place. Given that existing speaker wiring is glorified lamp cord, I’m not even sure existing surround installs would need to replace anything at all in terms of in-wall wiring. I’ll let you all dissect that potentially hair-brained scheme.

Will aim to keep things updated if there is further progress on my schemes.

 

[fpitas]

Maybe. I think old school audiophiles simply are used to hooking a big, impressive amp to passive speakers.

 

[Steve81]

Maybe. I think old school audiophiles simply are used to hooking a big, impressive amp to passive speakers.

Indeed, but they are a dying breed as well. New market opportunities. You don't need an external source of amplification, and its associated heat sinking and so forth for the distribution system, so that would be one advantage; the system hub would be relatively compact. I suppose Class-D amps address this to a great extent; not that old school audiophiles care for them either.

 

[fpitas]

Indeed, but they are a dying breed as well. New market opportunities. You don't need an external source of amplification, and its associated heat sinking and so forth for the distribution system, so that would be one advantage. I suppose Class-D amps address this to a great extent; not that old school audiophiles care for them either.

Some young friends prefer active. One has a fully active system like mine, with external amps for each set of drivers. But I think in time the vast majority of speakers will have built-in amps.

 

[Steve81]

Some young friends prefer active. One has a fully active system like mine, with external amps for each set of drivers. But I think in time the vast majority of speakers will have built-in amps.

I agree. In truth, most of my listening is with wireless earbuds these days. They certainly fit the bill of a convenient, active loudspeaker system. They seem rather popular with consumers as well.

 

[DMill]

My apologies if this has been discussed already. My question is, why don't we have the equivalent of PoE for active loudspeakers? Removing the need for a power cord would simplify setup dramatically, meeting, or conceivably even exceeding what can be done with conventional AVRs and passive loudspeakers now. Thoughts?
@amirm

It certainly would be a nice feature but I’m not sure it’s a problem that needs solving. I don’t think people are staying with passive speakers because of power cords. The truth of it is unless we put some type of rechargeable battery in the speaker like a Sonos Roam, they all need wires of some sort.

 

[Steve81]

It certainly would be a nice feature but I’m not sure it’s a problem that needs solving. I don’t think people are staying with passive speakers because of power cords. The truth of it is unless we put some type of rechargeable battery in the speaker like a Sonos Roam, they all need wires of some sort.

I had that thought as well, but someone mentioned the reliability of batteries as a reason to eschew that idea for home audio.

 

[GXAlan]

My apologies if this has been discussed already. My question is, why don't we have the equivalent of PoE for active loudspeakers? Removing the need for a power cord would simplify setup dramatically, meeting, or conceivably even exceeding what can be done with conventional AVRs and passive loudspeakers now. Thoughts?
@amirm

It’s a good thought. I have tried my 708P in my home theater and I end up needing expensive long XLR cables and snugly long power cables so that I can have them attached to my power center so that the 12V trigger activity works. With regular speaker wire, it’s much easier.

PoE is tricky since it’s designed for much lower wattage than you would need for a home theater at reference levels. I think doing things like 16 channels of Dirac can achieve a lot of what can be done with a full active setup and there’s no reason why you couldn’t apply the same type of detailed correction with Audyssey or Trinnov or other third party EQ.

Standard / Type	802.3af Type 1	802.3at Type 2	802.3bt Type 3	802.3bt Type 4
IEEE PoE Specifications for Cat5e @100m
Name / Year	PoE / 2003	PoE+ / 2009	Hi-PoE / 2018	Hi-PoE / 2018
PSE Input Voltage (Min)	44V/50V	50V	52V
Supported PD Class	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
PSE Output Power to Single-Signature PD	4W	6.7W	14W	30W	45W	60W	75W	90W - 100W
Single-Signature PD Input Power (Min)	3.84W	6.49W	13W	25.5W	40W	51W	62W	71.3W
PSE Output Power to Dual-Signature PD (per pairset)	4W	6.7W	14W	30W	45W	--	--	--
Dual-Signature PD Input Power (pairset / total)	3.84W / 7.68W	6.49W / 12.98W	13W / 26W	25.5W / 51W	35.6W / 71.2W	--	--	--
Ethernet Pairs	2-Pair	2-Pair or 4-Pair	4-Pair

 

[antcollinet]

My apologies if this has been discussed already. My question is, why don't we have the equivalent of PoE for active loudspeakers? Removing the need for a power cord would simplify setup dramatically, meeting, or conceivably even exceeding what can be done with conventional AVRs and passive loudspeakers now. Thoughts?
@amirm

What technology are you thinking of that would be capable of delivering the 100's of watts needed for active speakers? PoE certainly can't. Nor can USB power delivery.

 

[Steve81]

What technology are you thinking of that would be capable of delivering the 100's of watts needed for active speakers? PoE certainly can't. Nor can USB power delivery.

It would have to be developed as an industry agreed upon standard, but clearly it's possible to deliver power and digital signal in a more convenient package than we have today.

 

[TonyJZX]

as far as i know the only company that has done this is... Genelec... (of course who else could it be)

but they also worked out there's not enough power to work with so they have a system where the PoE powers an onboard battery to power transients

their idea is that you run PoE speakers on an commercial installation just like CCTV

my feeling is that it never took off that much

i think for home use it would make even less sense as you're throwing money at a problem that can be solved simply by conventional means and the whole idea of 'cables' even a single rj45 is probably 'unfashionable' too

as an aside i've had people ask my why wireless cameras dont exist? ie. you stick a camera into a room celiing corner and it just "goes"

and yes, that exists too with a huge set of caveats

i used to do cctv as part of networks etc.

 

[Littletycoon]

My apologies if this has been discussed already. My question is, why don't we have the equivalent of PoE for active loudspeakers? Removing the need for a power cord would simplify setup dramatically, meeting, or conceivably even exceeding what can be done with conventional AVRs and passive loudspeakers now. Thoughts?
@amirm

Poe speaker
Another Poe speaker

 

[kemmler3D]

What technology are you thinking of that would be capable of delivering the 100's of watts needed for active speakers? PoE certainly can't. Nor can USB power delivery.

USB-PD @ 100w would be more than enough for most listening scenarios if the actives have adequate caps. It's rare to actually draw hundreds of watts from the wall continuously unless you're blasting subs at concert levels. Even my NC500s only pull about 12w each at idle, and that's leagues beyond what most actives have built in.

So I guess my answer is we already have the tech for this, but the problem is the devices you'd want to connect the actives to (laptops, TVs, etc) don't have power delivery capability themselves, so you're looking at another power supply anyway.

 

[Steve81]

as far as i know the only company that has done this is... Genelec... (of course who else could it be)

but they also worked out there's not enough power to work with so they have a system where the PoE powers an onboard battery to power transients

their idea is that you run PoE speakers on an commercial installation just like CCTV

my feeling is that it never took off that much

i think for home use it would make even less sense as you're throwing money at a problem that can be solved simply by conventional means and the whole idea of 'cables' even a single rj45 is probably 'unfashionable' too

I suspect the whole concept of loudspeakers, beyond small portable units, is rather unfashionable these days, which would explain why nobody has bothered I suppose. I listen to music all the time, but the quality of a modern wireless earbud is perfectly adequate.

 

[kemmler3D]

I suspect the whole concept of loudspeakers, beyond small portable units, is rather unfashionable these days, which would explain why nobody has bothered I suppose. I listen to music all the time, but the quality of a modern wireless earbud is perfectly adequate.

I don't totally agree, Sonos is doing a decent business with stationary speakers. However, they offer what traditional loudspeakers don't -

• Very easy and convenient connectivity
• Place them wherever you want
• Small size as an overriding design imperative

Do they sound as good? No. Do they clear the bar for most people? Yes. Most people are perfectly willing to give up a little sound quality, and a little configurability/control for the convenience that Sonos offers.

They would switch to something else if it was as convenient, AND sounded noticeably better, though.

 

[rogu3]

I like the idea, but PoE would still require "a" cable. You can achieve a similar sort of thing with a regular power cable and wireless audio transmission (WiSA etc.).

My biggest hang up with active speakers, at least "audiophile" grade, is the ultimate reliability of the electronics. I had to replace both of the amps in my Dynaudio Focus XDs and it was a pain in the ass, which included shipping the speakers to Dynaudio for testing.

 

[Steve81]

I like the idea, but PoE would still require "a" cable. You can achieve a similar sort of thing with a regular power cable and wireless audio transmission (WiSA etc.).

It requires a cable from a central hub, but it also doesn't require that a power outlet be adjacent to every single spot you want a speaker.

 

[Focus SE]

I’ll throw in my useless $.02. I personally have no issues with active speakers. In fact I see the advantages. I however prefer the passive for mainly one reason, failures. If the internal amp quits you have but two choices and that is to ship and repair or throw away a speaker and amp. With class D technology as advanced as it is now, it continues to improve. In order to improve with it, the speaker must be replaced along with the amp inside it. If cost budgeting is a concern like it is for most all of us replacing two items at once is not easy. It’s Kind of the same idea for buying separate components.

 

[ta240]

Why is there a need to try to save people from separate amp and speakers?

 

[LTig]

My apologies if this has been discussed already. My question is, why don't we have the equivalent of PoE for active loudspeakers? Removing the need for a power cord would simplify setup dramatically, meeting, or conceivably even exceeding what can be done with conventional AVRs and passive loudspeakers now. Thoughts?
@amirm

I'd rather prefer just a power cord and use wireless transfer of audio data. This would make a multichannel system much easier to install.