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4K player purchase question

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MacCali

MacCali

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Why? There’s zero benefit and more cable clutter.

All that said there is one possible benefit to a stand-alone CD player - it will just play. With universals you may have to have the Tv on and go through a menu. $400 for such a player is crazy though. New ones may be expensive now because there’s no demand hence no production. Used ones will be adequate and should be very cheap.
Ones I found used and measure well are still 3 or 400. We want to be above 96 db right and equal dynamic range.

Like I said I am still less than 2 years in on home audio
 
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MacCali

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I disagree with that. If the audio is bad it’s system setup (likely setup, not equipment) to blame.
Is it not mp3 quality bandwidth? That was my understanding
 

Marc v E

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I've been enjoying a relatively cheap bluray player doing both film and cd duties for years.

It's really only the dac that determines the sound quality. I think that's the reason many here recommend a relatively cheap one over an all bells and whistles top of the line player.
 

Parametric

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I am running digital chain on a genelec system connected to a shield and a blu ray player (Sony 800 series - which i do recommend) calibrated trough glm. Saying that there is no difference between a netflix/hbo/disney stream compared to a blu ray disc doesn't sit right with me. I belive the difference is huge especially for older movies (for now) and the blu ray discs clearly comes out as the top performer. I do agree though with a former reply that you do not need a top of the line player as long as you have a good dac.
 

Tremolo

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The bandwidth of a 4k blueray is more than 120 mbps. No streaming service is reaching even the half of it, not even Apple TV. Sony was working on a streaming service with a video quality comparabile to blueray disc but I guess they quit the project
 

-Matt-

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Well like I said I would like a CD player as well, so when I use the cd player it will be using the analog outputs.

Seems like the reavon is crap so I will take your word for it

My TV is a samsung, so I wanted hdr10+ ability, but now I figure that doesn't make sense since there's no 10+ content. My TV is old, but it is a flagship, so I am considering that HDR optimizer to be beneficial vs the sony.

My AVR is a marantz 7013, it's not that good. However I am going to run it in premode and use external amps to get better sinad. Honestly if I just used the 8 ch analogs out I would probably get better performance.

Lastly, I do plan on eventually getting a AVM 70 at some point. So I figure why not get a great player too

@LTig Not sure what you mean by that, it does have room eq.

@DrStranger yes the AKM version is the one I want

@Laserjock Yes, and I did see comment #14/15, basically saying if you are going to run hdmi than it maybe pointless. The cd player is my reason why I want the 9000

@jhaider Honestly the only way I have seen movies is by streaming, and from my understanding the audio is crap from that. I really enjoy it coming from a sound bar to multich setup. However I am hoping I will get a more immersive experience with a quality player, or basically streaming is selling myself short. Also rather than buy a cd player just use it, I am certain you will all think it's a mistake but I got about 50 cd's give or take

Also, realistically with so many services I have for streaming they are all crap really. So many movies, yet none of them are really that interesting. To me it's just a bunch of fillers. Also I noticed every time I watch a movie the whole series is free, after watching one they want to charge me to watch the second or third movie. This has happened on numerous occasions

Clearly the point is to get better audio performance I assume @sarumbear Do I have this all wrong? I thought the audio quality is really crappy and it's compressed and file size is so small vs the actual BD

Given that you have interest in movies as well as music... Rather than investing heavily in a 4k player with analogue connections and external amps I think you would be much better served by putting that money into a new AVR with better built-in amplification. Any cheap disc spinner can then be used (via hdmi digital connection). The audio quality will be largely determined by the quality of the DACs in the AVR (which is why this should be your main investment). Always keep in mind that you will probably struggle to notice a difference between an 80dB SINAD AVR dac and a 120dB cd player dac (cd can only support 96db anyway).

I don't understand why people want to use analogue connection between the player and the AVR. If you then apply room eq in the avr (which is necessary to achieve the best sound) then you will be introducing additional analogue to digital and digital to analogue conversions needlessly. Far better to keep the signal in the digital domain as far through the chain as possible.

Using analogue connections also prevents your AVR from receiving the signal metadata (i.e. is it DTS HD Master 7.1 or Dolby Digital 5.1). This information is needed to upmix appropriately to remaining channels.

What happens when you later want to add height channels? Are there any players that have more than 8 analogue outputs?

And yes 4k uhd blu-ray and blu-ray offer better audio and video than streaming services. Even DVD can offer better audio than most streamed content (eg DTS ES Discrete 6.1).
 
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sarumbear

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The bandwidth of a 4k blueray is more than 120 mbps. No streaming service is reaching even the half of it, not even Apple TV. Sony was working on a streaming service with a video quality comparabile to blueray disc but I guess they quit the project
Bandwidth is loosely related to the image quality. If you are the type who chases the SINAD races then you may want to believe that you can see a huge difference between 120Mbps BR and 20Mbps Netflix when watching a TV at a distance.
 
OP
MacCali

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Given that you have interest in movies as well as music... Rather than investing heavily in a 4k player with analogue connections and external amps I think you would be much better served by putting that money into a new AVR with better built-in amplification. Any cheap disc spinner can then be used (via hdmi digital connection). The audio quality will be largely determined by the quality of the DACs in the AVR (which is why this should be your main investment). Always keep in mind that you will probably struggle to notice a difference between an 80dB SINAD AVR dac and a 120dB cd player dac (cd can only support 96db anyway).

I don't understand why people want to use analogue connection between the player and the AVR. If you then apply room eq in the avr (which is necessary to achieve the best sound) then you will be introducing additional analogue to digital and digital to analogue conversions needlessly. Far better to keep the signal in the digital domain as far through the chain as possible.

Using analogue connections also prevents your AVR from receiving the signal metadata (i.e. is it DTS HD Master 7.1 or Dolby Digital 5.1). This information is needed to upmix appropriately to remaining channels.

What happens when you later want to add height channels? Are there any players that have more than 8 analogue outputs?

And yes 4k uhd blu-ray and blu-ray offer better audio and video than streaming services. Even DVD can offer better audio than most streamed content (eg DTS ES Discrete 6.1).
I absolutely dont plan on running anything to my AVR besides hdmi. Do I have this all mixed up, if I want to play stereo music I would connect the analog outputs to my stereo setup, pre, amp, speakers.

Also I am getting more confused, if I put a CD in it's not going to show me tracks? on the 9000's display. If not that, I can use the remote to change tracks right?

Clearly we understand this unit has full cd capability, have no read the rest of the comments, however if it's going to do a cd player for 500 and bd player for another 500 I am totally fine with paying a 1000

I do want to get the AVM 70 however I am also considering that if I purchase that I need a multichannel amp with balanced inputs, not a must but I am going to clearly try to make it the best. All in all I do have 5.x.2 system and I have enough speakers to do 7.x.2 which is not requiring more amps as I only have 5 so I would need to purchase that plus another amp and that's basically putting me into the 4000+ range.

Also using my amp in preamp mode the unit can hit 90 db sinad without an issue, my amps are full power at 1.1 and 1.2v. AVR is 4k/60 and the player is 4k/60, but my TV is 4k/120 which would be great for the AVM 70 but overall would mean I need a new player all together. So this is why I am trying to hold off on that.

In addition, I mentioned I am very busy with work/life. I do get movies in but right now do not see any justification to purchasing 4000 dollars worth of stuff to watch 2-3 movies a week. I know this may not make sense, like why purchase the player if that's the case. Because when I do have the time I just want the best overall experience. I had absolutely no plans on running my AVR in pre mode, but since I am trying to get a great player I would like the performance to increase as well

Edit: I currently already have 5 channels of amplification which are perfect for performance on my AVR input sensitivity vs perf. So I would not be purchasing anything right now besides the player. Got even more amps laying around collecting dust, but none have balanced inputs. Merely testing the 5 channel experience first, the height channels are creating another issue which is why I have not been using them, however I am going to solve that issue soon enough
 
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JeffS7444

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Found photos of Reavon X100 and X200 with cover removed, scroll down to post #419:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/re...x200-ultra-hd-blu-ray-players.2348174/page-17
While I wouldn't automatically dismiss the things for looking pretty spartan, there's really no "next level" for components like optical transports, and this is exactly the sort of reason why I opted instead for a moderately priced Sony. If for whatever reason I feel the need for high-SINAD audio from it, I guess I could use an HDMI audio extractor, and feed the results into my Benchmark, which still sufficiently state-of-the-art for my purposes. Beyond a certain price point (Panasonic), your likelihood of encountering repackaged consumer-grade units sold as premium goods becomes pretty high. Even some respected names have been busted.
 
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GXAlan

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Main weakness of the Sony players is that they do not automatically switch between Dolby Vision and HDR10 normally. There is no HDR10+ if you have a Samsung TV but HDR10+ is a dead format. All three are identical (X700M2, X800M2, X1100) except for build quality. The ES model has a quieter drive.

The Panasonic has no SACD support but can play DSD files. The interface is poor but it is a DLNA renderer. The Panasonic has auto switching of Dolby Vision. The HDR10 remapping of the Panasonic is legendary and is why people put up with all of the weaknesses of the interface. If you don’t need analog audio the 820 is nearly as good as the 900. If you don’t need Dolby Vision, the 450 is good.

The Reavon is the newest with the least track record. It has SACD and DVD A playback but it’s not the same HDMI in of the Oppo nor does it have the same DAC quality. The UBP9000 and Oppo are interesting because they measure well. The UBP9000 only can do this with DLNA and USB storage. The Reavon is the same I believe.
 
OP
MacCali

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I would also like to say, maybe to flip this around, what would you suggest I purchase for a cd player or transport? If it's a player I would like balanced connections preferably, not that it would matter since the panasonic basically outputs rca power.

I absolutely do not understand what measurements are quality for a CD transport. Seems like jitter is a factor but I am not one to really distinguish what's good, I was looking originally at the CDT6000 and Leak basically the same thing with different clocks but the damn things are 500-700

Those discontinued CD players which have rave reviews and high manufacturer measurements are going for crazy expensive and it's used

Clearly as well a bd player that's going to be good for my samsung tv and how much are both going to cost?
 

voodooless

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So you have a separate stereo setup next to your AVR?

In that case, I’d opt for a cheap DAC and connect it optically to the player to get decent stereo performance. No need to spend bug bucks in the hopes a player will give decent analoge output. Somewhere below €$£ 150 should get you something good.
 
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MacCali

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Main weakness of the Sony players is that they do not automatically switch between Dolby Vision and HDR10 normally. There is no HDR10+ if you have a Samsung TV but HDR10+ is a dead format. All three are identical (X700M2, X800M2, X1100) except for build quality. The ES model has a quieter drive.

The Panasonic has no SACD support but can play DSD files. The interface is poor but it is a DLNA renderer. The Panasonic has auto switching of Dolby Vision. The HDR10 remapping of the Panasonic is legendary and is why people put up with all of the weaknesses of the interface. If you don’t need analog audio the 820 is nearly as good as the 900. If you don’t need Dolby Vision, the 450 is good.

The Reavon is the newest with the least track record. It has SACD and DVD A playback but it’s not the same HDMI in of the Oppo nor does it have the same DAC quality. The UBP9000 and Oppo are interesting because they measure well. The UBP9000 only can do this with DLNA and USB storage. The Reavon is the same I believe.
Reavon is getting a lot of heat on the AVS forums as overpriced, basically to me it seems like a waste. The only reason I was considering it is I assumed the measurements were good and that hdr10+ is a dead format which I realized since basically yesterday doing research, but clearly we see that what they are saying means otherwise as pointed out in one of the comments.

The company doesn't even know how many v are coming out of it's outputs, which was already fairly disturbing to me.

Now it basically comes down to my evaluation of the price.. I dont have sacd and dont really plan on buying any. Not even sure what DVD audio cd's are, but I dont think I have any of those as well

Does the damn video performance and hdr optimizer value at about 600? does it beat the sony 800 in video performance? if so I cant see why i would not buying this and the cd player is another 400 all in one
 

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does it beat the sony 800 in video performance? if so I cant see why i would not buying this and the cd player is another 400 all in one

Depends.

The UB9000 has very good 4:2:0 upsampling to 4:4:4. The cheaper Panasonics also do that. At normal seating distances, it probably is not noticeable. But it is processing with no known weakness.

The HDR optimizer is where the Panasonic is special. It’s one more thing to fiddle with and it is viewable at normal seating distances but whether or not this matters to you is a different question.

But for the most part, the video quality of the Sony is very good. The Sony software appears to be more stable although it doesn’t switch Dolby Vision automatically.

The Panasonic occasionally needs you to reboot it by unplugging and replugging it in, potentially something to do with the HDMI-CEC.

I think if the Panasonic played SACDs, the Reavon wouldn’t exist.
I think of the Sony auto switched Dolby Vision, it’d be a no brainer “plug and play” option with no fiddling around. It’s still a good no fiddling around option since HDR10 vs Dolby Vision is also splitting hairs compared to SDR vs HDR.
 
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MacCali

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So you have a separate stereo setup next to your AVR?

In that case, I’d opt for a cheap DAC and connect it optically to the player to get decent stereo performance. No need to spend bug bucks in the hopes a player will give decent analoge output. Somewhere below €$£ 150 should get you something good.
Yes, if this makes any difference and I did not mention my theater and stereo are in the same room. I wont be moving anything around, I wouldn't need to purchase another dac I have my D70s right there, that's my main dac

I got so many dacs laying around, I got a whole bunch of stuff laying around. I dont need to buy anything right now besides something to make my movie experience better and a few months back I decided instead of spending on a stand alone cd player I will just use the BDP. It did not make sense for me to spend money on a transport that I am not sure is going to perform well.

I also see the prices of cd players and transports which are impeccable, someone on here suggested that nu-prime, and they are in the 1000's. I am sure you know what I am referring too, think it's a studio transport and has i2s output as well, dont quote me on that studio. Clearly dropping 1500-1700 is more foolish
 

AdamG247

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I personally cannot understand why anyone buys a physical media player. Unless nostalgia or audiopholery makes BR to have a later (but minuscule) comeback, disk is a dead format.
This is the final straw. You come into a thread where a member is asking for assistance and recommendations for a new UHD disc player and all you have to say is how stupid anyone who would want a physical disc player and then continue to hound anyone who provides reasonable answers. You came into this thread just to troll and argue and insult. Enough. You have been given dozens of warnings and PM’s from me to correct your behavior. Yet you continue on you’re path of belittling people and their choices. So over this and you. Good bye. Good luck wherever you end up cause you’re going to need it.
 
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voodooless

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I wouldn't need to purchase another dac I have my D70s right there, that's my main dac

I got so many dacs laying around, I got a whole bunch of stuff laying around. I dont need to buy anything right now besides something to make my movie experience better and a few months back I decided instead of spending on a stand alone cd player I will just use the BDP.
Well, then you can skip the analog output criterium :) should give you more (and more affordable) options. Just make sure the player has an spdif output.
 
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MacCali

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Depends.

The UB9000 has very good 4:2:0 upsampling to 4:4:4. The cheaper Panasonics also do that. At normal seating distances, it probably is not noticeable. But it is processing with no known weakness.

The HDR optimizer is where the Panasonic is special. It’s one more thing to fiddle with and it is viewable at normal seating distances but whether or not this matters to you is a different question.

But for the most part, the video quality of the Sony is very good. The Sony software appears to be more stable although it doesn’t switch Dolby Vision automatically.

The Panasonic occasionally needs you to reboot it by unplugging and replugging it in, potentially something to do with the HDMI-CEC.

I think if the Panasonic played SACDs, the Reavon wouldn’t exist.
I think of the Sony auto switched Dolby Vision, it’d be a no brainer “plug and play” option with no fiddling around. It’s still a good no fiddling around option since HDR10 vs Dolby Vision is also splitting hairs compared to SDR vs HDR.
Damn... this is actually even more bad news. Cause my TV is super bright and it's "HDR Real Scene Peak Brightness" is 1287 nits. So the HDR optimizer according to the reviewer is basically far less noticeable with bright tvs
 

-Matt-

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Well, then you can skip the analog output criterium :) should give you more (and more affordable) options. Just make sure the player has an spdif output.
I second this.

No need for an expensive player these days. You can send CD audio from a cheap player via digital either to your AVR (hdmi) or via one of your existing DACs (optical) to your stereo system. The digital connection will be effectively totally lossless. I think you may have been becoming confused by looking at measurements for the analogue audio outputs of CD players - these all become irrelevant if using a digital output.

Personally I'd ditch the separate stereo and also run CD through the AVR in order to benefit from room EQ and bass management. (I think the drop in SINAD is worth it, others may not agree).

The same is pretty much true for video. There is not much point in paying extra for the video processing in an expensive player these days. The processing in your TV is likely to be as good, and if you don't know what you are doing with tone mapping you can really mess up your colour calibration. All of the signals sent to your TV will end up going through its internal processing anyway, so why duplicate this at the player end?

So, I'm sort of suggesting that you could simplify your system quite a bit, sell a bunch of stuff then invest that into the main parts. I.e. HDMI 2.1 TV and AVR, main speakers, subs and a cheaper universal disc player. (I dont think the AVM 70 has HDMI 2.1 by the way).

I understand that you may already be quite far along a different road, so feel free to ignore the above. I'm just offering some food for thought and trying to save you from spending in an area that I think is unlikely to yield much improvement in quality.
 
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Marc v E

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I would also like to say, maybe to flip this around, what would you suggest I purchase for a cd player or transport? If it's a player I would like balanced connections preferably, not that it would matter since the panasonic basically outputs rca power.

I absolutely do not understand what measurements are quality for a CD transport. Seems like jitter is a factor but I am not one to really distinguish what's good, I was looking originally at the CDT6000 and Leak basically the same thing with different clocks but the damn things are 500-700

Those discontinued CD players which have rave reviews and high manufacturer measurements are going for crazy expensive and it's used

Clearly as well a bd player that's going to be good for my samsung tv and how much are both going to cost?
Ime basically any transport will do.
This may seem odd, but back in the days when the apple streamer just came onto the market, I wanted to check for myself. I figured an optical output vs a dedicated transport should make a difference because all the hifi magazines told so. They didn't make a difference or a very small one. I was shocked and tried the optical out of a mac mini. Same story.

That's in a nutshell why I chose to go for a bluray player as cd transport.

(I haven't used a cd player with analogue out in years. I guess I'm not the best person to recommend one. For bluray players I would recommend a panasonic because it served me well for over 10 years. Sony is probably also a good buy. )
 
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