$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[MarkS]

eliminating the expensive cables and going with plain old copper fixed the problem.

 

[MKR]

@MKR

I apologize for talking about an experience that mirrors yours..
I have been in this hobby for a long time. 50+ Years and your experience mirrors one I had on a recent trip. I wasn't looking for speakers, simply wanted some kind of a refresh, trying to assess the state of things... I visited thus a High End Audio (HEA) dealer in the USA. I shudder at what the poor fellow must be paying for insurances, there were so many megabucks "things" in the store..Nordost cable, Rowland ( They are making a comeback in the HEA) gears, Beuatiful , shiny turntables, Mac Intosh, Audio Research , others famous, expensive names... I heard a few systems, some in the half million USD, yes... $500,000.oo total... and .. frankly ... my extremely modest but full range, $2500.oo with knowledge removed, shall wipe the floor with any of those... The fellow was nice too... It used to be different back then in the 1990s and early 2000's: HEA dealers were almost uniformly haughty, arrogant, some frankly disrespectful ... He went through a few "full range" systems and most of them were clearly lacking, except for the midrange which was often good. The rest of the spectrum was missing ... lacking or frankly bad. There was a tendency for stridency in many of those speakers treble... and the bass was all over the place , not reaching where my system routinely goes.. while idling .. I was warned that for what I needed, I would have to spend upward of $200K, yes. The strangest thing was that the fellow seemed to genuinely believe in his BS: No DSP in the chain, Cable to tame/shape the sound (e.g "don't use Nordsot with Magico speakers, better to "synergize" it with the mellow-sounding Cardas", Different DACs for better sound , of course increasingly expensive DACs... "Better" thus moh' expensive preamp and amp... Special Power conditioning since I had told him that I was off-grid... Tube Traps, a forrest of those, but also a few RPG "abfusors" ... since my room was dedicated to Hi-Fi,

I came back puzzled and went to my modest system and continue to be happy .. So much so, that before acquiring another pair of better speakers than my current JBL LSR 308 ($500/pair) but I have 3 for LCR, I put off the purchse and acquired rather the Audyssey MutEQ-X app to refine the in-room response of my system and I am even more pleased.
I would advise you to actively audition those on your short list rather than the meanders of those HEA offerings: To quote you with a bit of editing :


stick to your original list.

Peace.

Don’t apologize! All experiences and viewpoints are welcome here, and I am sure helpful to those following this thread. Fully agree with your comments and concur with your experiences.

As to sticking to my original list, not sure what you are trying to say here. That I have lost focus? I can assure you nothing could be further from the truth and the “meanders” are valuable. What happened in my first trip and this most recent audition is that the dealer(s) carry additional brands/models not on my list (but they always have at least one brand/model on my list, hence reason I visited them!). And if I am there anyway, may as well listen to some not on the list to make this the most educated decision possible. Not to mention I may discover some outstanding speakers that I had not even considered, which certainly happened in that first trip. For example, over my budget, but the Acora and Zellaton were outstanding and maybe my experience helpful for those that can afford such speakers. I would also never had considered Legacy but they are now under serious consideration! While my primary focus is my personal selection of course, still it is my secondary intent to help others who may be now or in the future taking on a similar quest.

For everyone’s reference, the latest short list …

Revel Salon 2
Genelec 8351/61 + W371 (these begrudgingly remain on the list given the recent quality issues and poor customer support experienced by @srrxr71, I am very leery … this “service” after purchase complexity for actives was part of the reason I really wanted to steer clear of actives to begin with)
KEF Blade One/Two Meta
JBL 4367
JBL M2 (this one may drop also as again it is of course active, not to mention it lost to the Salon 2 in the now infamous blind listening test, albeit narrowly)
Legacy Aeris … New! (I would also consider the V, but over my budget)

Note the Danleys and GGNTKT were dropped simply due to the extreme difficulty to audition, even I have my limits on the extents to which I will go to audition, and this seems like trying to find pink unicorns. Too much work, low ROI

 

[MKR]

Another fun read!

When I auditioned Raidho speakers I found the sound to be a bit too recessed, so all sorts of tracks I knew well would lack the energy and drive I liked (for instance bongos, percussion, anything with some leading edge impact in those ranges sounded subdued). They were easy on the ears though.

*Your Joseph Pearl description is fascinating. That is the first time I've ever heard anyone describe the sound that way. In fact it's basically the opposite of how most people hear those speakers (or Joseph speakers, generally speaking). I too am suspicious of typical audiophile dealer excuses "they need break in" and the like. So it's hard to fathom what was going on there.

Well, shows it's always a good idea to listen for yourself.
(Or at least for some of us...others may wish to rely soley on measurements, which is a legitimate approach).


*(This is why, when looking to reports from audiophiles/reviewers, I personally look for trends rather than a single report or review. You can usually find a knock on any speaker from someone, but if there is some continuity among the impressions I often find those trends are borne out when I hear the speaker myself. So for instance, if I'd read your single impression of the Joseph speakers sounding "harsh" I'd never have bought them, but since that is the opposite of what most report, and of what I hear, I found them a hugely gratifying purchase).

Looks like those Salons are looming in the distance!

Thanks for your reports!

Don’t misunderstand my impression of the Josephs. A single ~15min listening session (that’s all I could stand) certainly should not be construed as the final word, nor should it deter someone from listening to them and coming to their own conclusion. This is just what I heard on this day in this specific situation. Same caveat should be stated for ALL of my SUBJECTIVE listening impressions.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Don’t misunderstand my impression of the Josephs. A single ~15min listening session (that’s all I could stand) certainly should not be construed as the final word, nor should it deter someone from listening to them and coming to their own conclusion. This is just what I heard on this day in this specific situation. Same caveat should be stated for ALL of my SUBJECTIVE listening impressions.

Here's a radical thought. Have you tried to contact Harman and get a chance at a blind comparison between the Salon2 and 2 of your other candidates? It's likely they'd insist on including also the f328 PerformaBe but the experience would be illuminating.

 

[MKR]

Thanks for sharing this report and look forward to the next one.

My one suggestion is that once the field is winnowed down you listen to the top 3 in different locations from the original locations or better yet in your home. More data is always a good idea... especially before dropping real money on this adventure.

Nice sentiments and ideal situation to be sure, but very unlikely. First, almost no dealer will ship $30k loudspeakers to your home for a risk free audition. Second, it is unethical to waste time of dealers where you have no intent to purchase said specific model from them. I respect dealer territories and their time.

 

[MKR]

Here's a radical thought. Have you tried to contact Harman and get a chance at a blind comparison between the Salon2 and 2 of your other candidates? It's likely they'd insist on including also the f328 PerformaBe but the experience would be illuminating.

Very, very interesting idea @Kal Rubinson ! However, I am just a lowly potential customer among thousands, I cannot see the massive corp that is Harman setting up such a session for one person. I wouldn’t even know who to contact! Feel free to DM me if you have some advice

 

[MKR]

Don’t forget that the salon2 is near the end of its life cycle. It’s been out what 15 years and per some “insiders” a replacement is coming out in the next couple years.

I’m thinking of buying spare drivers just in case they run out of parts but they aren’t cheap. Tweeters cost $1000 each, the 4” mid range is like $300 etc.

It’s one of the reasons why I started looking at the 802D4 which I’m no longer looking now after this thread (thanks). Maybe I’ll look for beefier amps but I’ve been stress testing the ATI6000 this weekend and my ears are giving out before the amp did. If you do get the salon2, let me know what amps you are thinking as well please.

Well aware, already done that research. I have been assured by Revel directly, the rep, and my dealer that drivers will be available for at least 10 years. Of course stuff happens and no guarantee. With that said, it is still a risk that must be considered, and I am doing so. It is one fact that may keep me from purchasing the Salon 2s, no matter how good they sound. What I will likely do however if I go with Salon 2s is request the dealer throw in extra drivers as part of the purchase! We shall see …

And I know for a fact from “insiders” a Salon 3 is imminent, but it will be well above my budget, and no one really knows for certain when it will be released to market.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Nice sentiments and ideal situation to be sure, but very unlikely. First, almost no dealer will ship $30k loudspeakers to your home for a risk free audition. Second, it is unethical to waste time of dealers where you have no intent to purchase said specific model from them. I respect dealer territories and their time.

I understand the difficulty of listening in your own home.

The emphasis of my suggestion was on listening to your favorites in multiple locations... only reiterating the obvious about the ideal of an in-home evaluation.

 

[mglobe]

Very, very interesting idea @Kal Rubinson ! However, I am just a lowly potential customer among thousands, I cannot see the massive corp that is Harman setting up such a session for one person. I wouldn’t even know who to contact! Feel free to DM me if you have some advice

Yeah but you know people.

 

[MKR]

Yeah but you know people.

LOL … I know people, but I am not sure if they are the right people

 

[Lsc]

Well aware, already done that research. I have been assured by Revel directly, the rep, and my dealer that drivers will be available for at least 10 years. Of course stuff happens and no guarantee. With that said, it is still a risk that must be considered, and I am doing so. It is one fact that may keep me from purchasing the Salon 2s, no matter how good they sound. What I will likely do however if I go with Salon 2s is request the dealer throw in extra drivers as part of the purchase! We shall see …

And I know for a fact from “insiders” a Salon 3 is imminent, but it will be well above my budget, and no one really knows for certain when it will be released to market.

This is great news for me and thanks for getting all that info. No more speculation needed and I don’t have to stockpile spare drivers now . Hopefully if you get the salon2, you can get a vnice deal since they are near the end.

And yes, you doing a lot of in person research has helped us tremendously especially in these times where auditioning stuff is not so easy. Now that the 802D4 is ruled out, I’ll probably just wait for the salon3 and see if it’s worth the extra cost and in the meantime just enjoy the music.

 

[n1rvana]

And I know for a fact from “insiders” a Salon 3 is imminent, but it will be well above my budget, and no one really knows for certain when it will be released to market.

Based on your statement above, do you have an idea how much the Salon 3s will cost? I'm in the market to purchase end-game speakers as well early next year after my big move.

 

[MattHooper]

Well aware, already done that research. I have been assured by Revel directly, the rep, and my dealer that drivers will be available for at least 10 years. Of course stuff happens and no guarantee. With that said, it is still a risk that must be considered, and I am doing so. It is one fact that may keep me from purchasing the Salon 2s, no matter how good they sound. What I will likely do however if I go with Salon 2s is request the dealer throw in extra drivers as part of the purchase! We shall see …

Good move. Most people don't think ahead like that. Admittedly I rarely do too. However in the case of my Thiel 2.7s I bought them when the company had already recently folded. Fortunately one of their long time technicians opened up a service for legacy Thiel speakers and I acquired spare drivers for my 2.7s (which are very proprietary made-by-Thiel drivers). It's nice to have those just in case.

Actually, now that I remember, I also acquired some spare drivers for my Hales Transcendence Center channel speakers, as only a handful were made before that company shut down too! (And..wait..I also stocked up on spare tubes for my tube amps. So maybe I do think ahead sometimes..)

BTW, I can't believe this thread is already 59 pages long!

 

[Absolute]

@Kal Rubinson I looked through some downloaded measurements the other day and found some excellent looking graphs from Stereophile's test of Vimberg Mino.
Near-field measurements from Atkinson looks similar to your Blades and the directivity looks wide and even. Do you have experience with these? It might fit the budget of @MKR

Link to the stereophile review; https://www.stereophile.com/content/vimberg-mino-loudspeaker

KEF Blade Two Meta loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

 

[Purité Audio]

The Vimbergs a cheaper sibling ’cheaper’ used advisedly measure a little better then their even more expensive Tidal brethren.
Keith

 

[delta76]

And my second audition trip report …

First, the dealer I visited was a very, very nice fella. A good human to be sure, so don’t take the following comments as a judgement on his character. But, I have never seen more audiophilia tomfoolery snake oil in one place in my ~40 years of being in this crazy hobby. Dedicated power transformer circuit only for the audio components, power conditioners everywhere, firehose speaker cables and interconnect, firehose power cables, cable lifters, thousand of hours of breakin required for speakers and electronics before they sound “good”, megabuck DACs everywhere, etc, etc. There must have been around $300k alone of snake oil in this place, not including any of the speakers or megabuck amps/preamps. It was bonkers. Name every negative nonsensical thing you can think of that us audio objectivists abhor in this industry/hobby and it was likely present at this dealer. The sad thing is this poor fella genuinely believed every bit of it and was fully drinking the kool aid. I wanted to have an intervention for him! With this said, I would recommend this dealer to anyone. Aside from the goofiness, he was genuine and honorable, and he treats his customers well, no doubt in my mind, just over the top with the snake oil.

I don't want to be rude, but I would not recommend any cable/non sense equipment believer as a dealer to anyone. a much less nice (but still decent/polite) dealer with conscience is much better.

 

[MKR]

Based on your statement above, do you have an idea how much the Salon 3s will cost? I'm in the market to purchase end-game speakers as well early next year after my big move.

Sorry, no idea. Only I have heard it will be a fairly large step up from current pricing

 

[MKR]

I don't want to be rude, but I would not recommend any cable/non sense equipment believer as a dealer to anyone. a much less nice (but still decent/polite) dealer with conscience is much better.

The point is the fella was genuine and believed in what he sold, which is very different than someone who knows it is nonsense and still proceeds to pawn it off on poor unsuspecting folks that don’t know any better. Not for a second did I believe he was trying to pull one over on me or lacked a conscience (I like to think I am quite savvy at this game, been at it for almost 40 years). Of course I tried to convince him otherwise, but it was just ignorance and like he had been brainwashed ... And it’s not like all the gear he had was nonsense, he had some decent stuff, Magico and Vivid for example are the real deal, and no doubt he takes good care of his customers (he has been in biz for over 20 years), and no one would force you to purchase the snake oil products from him, it’s still a free country, just stick to the products that provide real measured performance. Mainly to say, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water

 

[MKR]

@Kal Rubinson I looked through some downloaded measurements the other day and found some excellent looking graphs from Stereophile's test of Vimberg Mino.
Near-field measurements from Atkinson looks similar to your Blades and the directivity looks wide and even. Do you have experience with these? It might fit the budget of @MKR

Link to the stereophile review; https://www.stereophile.com/content/vimberg-mino-loudspeaker


View attachment 261040

KEF Blade Two Meta loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Thanks for the recommend, but I think you can get better (or equal) performance for less money. Plus never been a fan of the Accuton drivers. Heard them many, many times in other well regarded speaker designs and for lack of a better word, “sterile” always comes to mind. If I were going to spend this much at the limits or slightly exceed my budget (which would be the case with these), there are many other speakers I would rather have, including the Zellatons or Acoras. Or even step up to the Magico S series!

 

[GXAlan]

I think the 4367/M2 is the last speaker you need to try. You clearly like the Salon2 and that is like buying a 911 Turbo. Sure there might be faster sports cars, more engaging sports cars — but it is a consistently reasonable choice across the board at a given price point. The fact that it outdid your expectations, looks great, and has a proven pedigree lets you buy and enjoy.

The blind test done a few years back did show that the Revel Salon2 was preferred by consumers overall, however there were a few people who consistently preferred the M2. As much as horns should distort and roll off on the top end, there is something favorable that occurs with great recordings and vocals.

I have shown that conventional speakers and compression driver speakers can measure similarly at the listening position but there is still a subjective increase in energy you get from music being played back with compression drivers.