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PS Audio sent Erin their speaker??!!

MattHooper

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It's gone way past that! It seems to have developed into a few subjectivists defending subjective reviews initiated by a subjective reviewer no less.:D
There are surprisngly few objectivists for want of a better description on this forum and those that are here tend not to get involved in these tedious debates. It's part of the reason I don't post here much despite having read ASR from its first weeks online and being a member here since 2019.

I suspect you are misinterpreting some people’s view.

Are you saying Erin is a “subjectivist reviewer?” Do you think I am a “subjectivist?” If so, I’m curious what you mean by that term.
 

Sokel

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Because of the following:
There's nothing scientific about price.
And you said any speaker (or anything from PS audio),no just that one who looks ok to me otherwise.
A little EQ can turn it to really nice (for it's size).it has the potential if one buys it for any other reason (it's looks is not my cup of tea either but someone else may love it) .

So,open mind.
 

CleanSound

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And you said any speaker (or anything from PS audio),no just that one who looks ok to me otherwise.
Oh yes, I did.

How dare you, why such absurd prejudice, you may ask?

Oh, I don't know. . .maybe, just maybe because I watch one too many videos of Paul McGowan?

Maybe because Paul McGowan said measurements aren't important when it comes to listening? Coincidently none of their electronics measured well.

Maybe because Paul McGowan said cables makes a difference in sound and it matters?

Maybe because Paul McGowan is the owner of PS Audio and his subjectivist ideologies gets baked into any of his products?

Maybe because PS Audio is significantly over priced for what it's worth?

Oh, I don't know, maybe. . .just maybe PS Audio and Paul McGowan represents the antithesis of everything the scientifically minded community stands for?

There's nothing scientific about price.

Au contraire, I reckon there is something called pricing models and there is something call targeted profit margin and most importantly there is something called value. If you like to argue value with PS Audio products, I will let you argue that till the cows come home. Moooooooo.
 

Sokel

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Oh yes, I did.

How dare you, why such absurd prejudice, you may ask?

Oh, I don't know. . .maybe, just maybe because I watch one too many videos of Paul McGowan?

Maybe because Paul McGowan said measurements aren't important when it comes to listening? Coincidently none of their electronics measured well.

Maybe because Paul McGowan said cables makes a difference in sound and it matters?

Maybe because Paul McGowan is the owner of PS Audio and his subjectivist ideologies gets baked into any of his products?

Maybe because PS Audio is significantly over priced for what it's worth?

Oh, I don't know, maybe. . .just maybe PS Audio and Paul McGowan represents the antithesis of everything the scientifically minded community stands for?



Au contraire, I reckon there is something called pricing models and there is something call targeted profit margin and most importantly there is something called value. If you like to argue value with PS Audio products, I will let you argue that till the cows come home. Moooooooo.
And how all this translates into this speaker?
They don't,it seems to me that follows closely what science says.We have the engineer right here in this thread,why don't you argue all that with him?
I don't care about uncle Paul at all as much as everyone,if he sells something I like I'll get it without shame even if he claims it to be extraterrestrial.

About pricing models I'm somehow single minded calculating all the factors,and that includes warranty,pre and after sales support,etc.
And also my own thing trying to support people at my continent or people well payed for their job as much as possible as my money may return to me in some form or just like them seeing prosper as I did with their help.But the later is just me.
 

dfuller

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This whole thread is dumb.

Erin's approach is valid. Amir's approach is valid. The data correlates consistently to what both hear. Now can we quit arguing about stuff that ultimately doesn't matter?

On topic of the speaker: There are flaws in the magnitude response for sure; on the upshot, the distortion performance is excellent and so is their overall directivity curve, meaning - wait for it - you can use EQ on these in a typical reflective environment.
 

boxerfan88

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It was a terrific review by Erin. A really wonderful combo of subjective description and correlation with measurements, as well as why someone may enjoy a speaker even when it doesn't measure ultra neutral.

Agreed. I enjoy the Erin’s review approach.

The review results also goes to show how incredibly tolerant our listening/hearing system is.

While I use a neutral speaker on a daily basis. I have come across speakers that aren’t that neutral yet I have enjoyed listening to them.
 

Shadrach

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I suspect you are misinterpreting some people’s view.
Always possible.
Are you saying Erin is a “subjectivist reviewer?”
I have absolutely no idea. I read the review of the speaker this thread is about and the fuss is about is his subjective impressions. I'm not remotely interested in those. I have some reservations regarding his methodology, but these are based on limited information.

Do you think I am a “subjectivist?”
I do.
If so, I’m curious what you mean by that term.
Someone who places as much faith in their listening experience as they do in measurements very roughly. I don't have the interest to delve further into a definition. It shouldn't be a problem and what I think shouldn't concern you.
 

CleanSound

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And how all this translates into this speaker?
They measure OK, and they are price A LOT. Sure it's a welcome for PS Audio, but in today's speaker market, I think they brought knives to a gun fight my friend. You can buy these speakers if you like, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole, at least not at this price point.

About pricing models I'm somehow single minded calculating all the factors,and that includes warranty,pre and after sales support,etc.
And also my own thing trying to support people at my continent or people well payed for their job as much as possible as my money may return to me in some form or just like them seeing prosper as I did with their help.But the later is just me.
Oh, I don't know, maybe. . .just maybe Ascend Acoustics ELX is only $5,500 shipped, Philharmonic HT Tower is under $5k shipped and objectively both are significantly better performing? I don't know, that's just a maybe. And moooooo.
 
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nerdemoji

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You think looking at FR10 speaker doesn't do this for you? And in totally improper way?
Well, it certainly does, though the reviewer can't hide the speaker behind a curtain and forget it now can he? Looking at measurements before subjective evaluation is a choice. I'm sure if someone handed any one of us measurements that were poor, but not for the speaker we are listening to, we would come up with ways problems with the sound, even if the actual measurements were different. Of course this is a fantastical scenario, though.
If measurements tell me a speaker is totally flat, you want me to go and pontificate without that knowledge that what I heard was too bright? And then show the measurements indicating otherwise? To what end?
If this happens, this tells the reviewer that they:
1. Might not have perfectly flat preferences. In the Harman studies, trained listeners preferred slightly less HF than a well measuring, flat speaker in a room (just to clarify, the in-room response was not flat but the speaker is).
2. Might have a bright test track. I dislike subjective reviews without measurements, specifically because some people listen to some very bright songs.
3. I know this is out side of your premise, but sometimes people hear a midrange scoop as an increase in treble.
4. Might have a speaker with wide directivity, which raises in-room treble.

As I see it, revising your subjective experiences because of external information, whether it's price, looks, company reputation, online reviews, or measurements hurts the integrity and value of the subjective portion. Less-info=more blind.
Note that when I do listening tests, I initially don't have the measurements in front of me. I use my laptop for listening and the files are elsewhere. I listen for a bit and give you the "stock impression." But then I look and re-evaluate what i thought. If test hypothesis with EQ development. I perform that testing blind if needed. I am fully connecting listening tests to measurements this way. This is the only sane way to give proper subjective data.
The blind EQ portion of your method is great and I wish more reviewers did that. It is a great way of determining preferences too, if test tracks are accounted for of course. And I agree that Erin should do some testing in Mono. As for positioning, an in-room sweep would achieve essentially the same end, or perhaps better.

Also, sorry if any of my language has been confrontational; I have had to argue with young earth creationist pseudoscience for over a week now and I've been missing sleep too lol (unrelated to the young earth creationism)
 

MattHooper

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This whole thread is dumb.

Erin's approach is valid. Amir's approach is valid. The data correlates consistently to what both hear. Now can we quit arguing about stuff that ultimately doesn't matter?

On topic of the speaker: There are flaws in the magnitude response for sure; on the upshot, the distortion performance is excellent and so is their overall directivity curve, meaning - wait for it - you can use EQ on these in a typical reflective environment.

 

BrokenEnglishGuy

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They measure OK, and they are price A LOT. Sure it's a welcome for PS Audio, but in today's speaker market, I think they brought knives to a gun fight my friend. You can buy these speakers if you like, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole, at least not at this price point.


Oh, I don't know, maybe. . .just maybe Ascend Acoustics ELX is only $5,500 shipped, Philharmonic HT Tower is under $5k shipped and objectively both are significantly better performing? I don't know, that's just a maybe. And moooooo.
None of these speakers has what fr10 offers..

Very wide horizontal mid range and high frequencys, also the imd from the mids and highs are world class
 
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nerdemoji

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None of these speakers has what fr10 offers..

Very wide horizontal mid range and high frequencys, also the imd from the mids and highs are world class
I'm pretty sure the Philharmonic HT Tower has very low distortion
From Philharmonic's website:
1711070178658.png

like -55db over most of the bandwidth
 

MattHooper

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Always possible.

I have absolutely no idea. I read the review of the speaker this thread is about and the fuss is about is his subjective impressions. I'm not remotely interested in those. I have some reservations regarding his methodology, but these are based on limited information.

Ok. It seems you leapt to assuming Erin was a "subjective reviewer" on which the thread was based, whereas most would consider his reviews a beacon of objectivity in the audio reviewing realm, given he employs the best speaker measuring device available, and emphasizes analysis of the measurements.


I do.

Someone who places as much faith in their listening experience as they do in measurements very roughly.

Depends on what you mean. Do I prefer to hear a speaker before buying it so ensure I like the sound? Definitely.

Do I think my ears are more accurate than measurements, or that our ears are a gold standard for understanding the performance of equipment, or that my perception can't be in error?

Certainly not.

So I don't know where that leaves me with your personal definition of subjectivist, but hopefully that clears something up.

I don't have the interest to delve further into a definition. It shouldn't be a problem and what I think shouldn't concern you.

If I wrote an opinion about you, that you took to be possibly misleading, would it be of no concern to you?

I'd think that most are hear to exchange opinions, see what other people think too. So it's natural to wonder what someone means, especially since you seemed to be writing an opinion about me (among others).

No biggie. Cheers.
 
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nerdemoji

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Yeah but the fr10 has very ultra loe distortion AND IMD, and subbass and dispersion ultra wide.
Philharmonic is known for having very wide dispersion. Wider than FR10
IMD is almost always scales with harmonic distortion
 

tmtomh

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Sorry you are wrong.

I've seen it in so many videos and I just watched his L50 Meta video

He can hear 2dB scoop at 2kHz that shows up later in his measurements.

KEF provide anechoic chamber measurements in product brochure and he was late in reviewing these as he notes at the beginning.

Have you seen how any speakers he measures on Klippel, measure in his listening room at listening position ?

Being on ASR , wouldn't that be the most important thing to see for his 'subjective listening' ?

Good grief indeed.

Even Darko has shared his room acoustics measurements recently ! :facepalm:

Still deflecting. He didn't say he could hear the 600Hz scoop-out, which is the basis upon which you accused him of lying. Why can't you be an adult and just admit you were mistaken?
 
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