Denon AVR-A1H

[slacki]

for me as noob: does that mean, a speaker with less sensitivity is better when i dont want to hear any hiss? tbh i dont get it. when i have a low sensitive speaker, i have to raise the volume higher. then i have the same hiss with the low sensitive speaker because i have to raise the volume. or not? if its too off topic let me know, then sorry and i will create a new thread.

 

[peng]

for me as noob: does that mean, a speaker with less sensitivity is better when i dont want to hear any hiss? tbh i dont get it. when i have a low sensitive speaker, i have to raise the volume higher. then i have the same hiss with the low sensitive speaker because i have to raise the volume. or not? if its too off topic let me know, then sorry and i will create a new thread.

It depends, are you talking about a separate preamp and power amp, or integrated amp such as an AVR? In this case, the A1H is an AVR, @Unplugged said the hiss seems constant level with volume 0-80 or so (post#220), that's why some of us are focusing on the power amp side.

He did also mention "It does get louder once I pass volume 85, and that could be the added noise from the preamp/dac section coming through, that is, at below volume 80, or 0 on the relative scale, there is attenuation on the preamp/dac side (amp experts may correct me on this, and I do hope they would chime in and offer some ideas to our op Unplugged who just spend thousands of $ on the A1H. If it's me, I would want to know whether the hiss heard is expected, or the unit should be returned

If you are referring to separate preamp and power amp, then assuming the audible hiss is from the power amp, then yes higher sensitivity speakers will give you higher hiss level because the noise voltage generated by the power amp itself is more or less constant. In that case, you can lower the hiss level by using less sensitive speakers, or lower the gain of the power amp, if there is a setting for it, such as the Benchmark amp.

On that note, Benchmark does have a great article explaining:

Benchmark AHB2 Power Amplifier

Benchmark's new AHB2 Power Amplifier - "The Quietest, Cleanest Audio Amplifier on the Planet"

benchmarkmedia.com

Note the example he used (last paragraph below):

Rated output relative to output noise, inputs shorted

• 132 dB A-weighted, Stereo Mode
• 135 dB A-weighted, Mono Mode
• 130 dB Unweighted, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, Stereo Mode
• 133 dB Unweighted, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, Mono Mode

Noise Voltage​

Output noise voltage, A-weighted, inputs shorted

• -103 dBV, -101 dBu, 7.1 uVrms, Stereo Mode
• -100 dBV, -98 dBu, 9.8 uVrms, Mono Mode

Use dBV to calculate the SPL of the noise produced by your speaker/amplifier combination. Use the following formula: Amplifier output noise voltage in dBV + speaker sensitivity at 2.83V - 9 dB. Example: Mono mode driving very high efficiency speakers: (-100 dBV) + (104 dB SPL @ 2.83V 1m) - 9 dB = -5 dB SPL at 1 meter. This means that the system noise will be 5 dB below the threshold of hearing when driving speakers with a very high 104 dB efficiency.

So, in this example, if you substitute the speaker sensitivity with @Unplugged 's 96 dB one, the system noise would have been 13 dB below the threshold of hearing, but that's for the Benchmark amp that must have noise voltage much lower than that of the A1H's amp's. If the A1H's noise voltage is say, 15 dB higher, then the hiss would be above the threshold of hearing.

Below is a post by @DonH56 that you may be interested in reading:

Avoiding Amp Hiss

So I’ve been reading a fair amount here and joined today… I’m looking to change my home theater amplification setup, but am unsure of direction. A bit of background: - processor is an SDP-75 (trinnov) 24 channel - LCR, LW AND RW are JBL M2 speakers (92 db sensitivity) - side and rears are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Unplugged]

I will be

It depends, are you talking about a separate preamp and power amp, or integrated amp such as an AVR? In this case, the A1H is an AVR, @Unplugged said the hiss seems constant level with volume 0-80 or so (post#220), that's why some of us are focusing on the power amp side.

He did also mention "It does get louder once I pass volume 85, and that could be the added noise from the preamp/dac section coming through, that is, at below volume 80, or 0 on the relative scale, there is attenuation on the preamp/dac side (amp experts may correct me on this, and I do hope they would chime in and offer some ideas to our op Unplugged who just spend thousands of $ on the A1H. If it's me, I would want to know whether the hiss heard is expected, or the unit should be returned

If you are referring to separate preamp and power amp, then assuming the audible hiss is from the power amp, then yes higher sensitivity speakers will give you higher hiss level because the noise voltage generated by the power amp itself is more or less constant. In that case, you can lower the hiss level by using less sensitive speakers, or lower the gain of the power amp, if there is a setting for it, such as the Benchmark amp.

On that note, Benchmark does have a great article explaining:

Benchmark AHB2 Power Amplifier

Benchmark's new AHB2 Power Amplifier - "The Quietest, Cleanest Audio Amplifier on the Planet"

benchmarkmedia.com

Note the example he used (last paragraph below):

Rated output relative to output noise, inputs shorted

• 132 dB A-weighted, Stereo Mode
• 135 dB A-weighted, Mono Mode
• 130 dB Unweighted, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, Stereo Mode
• 133 dB Unweighted, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, Mono Mode

Noise Voltage​

Output noise voltage, A-weighted, inputs shorted

• -103 dBV, -101 dBu, 7.1 uVrms, Stereo Mode
• -100 dBV, -98 dBu, 9.8 uVrms, Mono Mode

Use dBV to calculate the SPL of the noise produced by your speaker/amplifier combination. Use the following formula: Amplifier output noise voltage in dBV + speaker sensitivity at 2.83V - 9 dB. Example: Mono mode driving very high efficiency speakers: (-100 dBV) + (104 dB SPL @ 2.83V 1m) - 9 dB = -5 dB SPL at 1 meter. This means that the system noise will be 5 dB below the threshold of hearing when driving speakers with a very high 104 dB efficiency.

So, in this example, if you substitute the speaker sensitivity with @Unplugged 's 96 dB one, the system noise would have been 13 dB below the threshold of hearing, but that's for the Benchmark amp that must have noise voltage much lower than that of the A1H's amp's. If the A1H's noise voltage is say, 15 dB higher, then the hiss would be above the threshold of hearing.

Below is a post by @DonH56 that you may be interested in reading:

Avoiding Amp Hiss

So I’ve been reading a fair amount here and joined today… I’m looking to change my home theater amplification setup, but am unsure of direction. A bit of background: - processor is an SDP-75 (trinnov) 24 channel - LCR, LW AND RW are JBL M2 speakers (92 db sensitivity) - side and rears are...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I will be returning the A1H. It’s too much money for me not to be 100% happy. It’s an impressive spec sheet, but at this price I expect perfection.

 

[Joe909]

As I wrote it's overpriced and not a steal. You can get separates for the same price.
Trinnov is more expensive as it is a premium product with the best room correction money can buy.
Amplitude 16 is class D and the Denon is class AB.
Apmplitude 16 is also overpriced as you can get two 8ch Hypex amps with 250W @4ohm for 4400€.

First of all, I agree that the Denon is overpriced. What I wonder about is how everyone praises Dirac so much. I read from an expert in the field of room correction software that all three of the most common (YPAO, Audessey, and Dirac) can give great results if you know how to use them properly. He also opined that none of them were perfect. Interesting to note here, it seemed that he thought Audessey was the best (default on Denon) if you had multiple subs to integrate into your system and theater (as opposed to just music) was a primary concern. I am interested in everyone's response on the subject of room correction software - which I mention in this thread simply because it was a way of some commenters to stress a 'liability' of this Denon.

 

[Chrispy]

I will be


I will be returning the A1H. It’s too much money for me not to be 100% happy. It’s an impressive spec sheet, but at this price I expect perfection.

Why didn't you just do your homework up front before purchasing?

 

[GXAlan]

all three of the most common (YPAO, Audessey, and Dirac) can give great results if you know how to use them properly. He also opined that none of them were perfect.

This is very true. We live in a blessed world where even an entry level setup is still pretty good, and we are splitting hairs. It would be the difference between streaming 4K and disc-based 4K. There *are* clear and measurable differences, but if you're enjoying the movie/show, you're still enjoying it -- and it's definitely better than 480P DVD...

I have used YPAO RSC 64-bit High Precision, Audyssey XT32, Dirac Live including Bass Control Multi-Sub, Sony previous gen DDAC EX, and Trinnov Optimizer. Heck, I've even used Sonos Trueplay with the Sonos Arc and MiniDSP based PEQ. I just haven't used ARC/ARC Genesis.

My bias is that there is room correction, speaker correction, and speaker placement correction.

Room correction is where you do just that. Try to address the room nodes/nulls that make things seem a bit boomy or hollow. This is largely in the bass where speakers are largely omndirectional so dispersion is less of an issue.

Speaker correction is frequency response equalization to get a smoother frequency response. You may have impulse or phase correction here, etc. This is where trying to distinguish between direct and reflected sounds, dispersion and whether the off-axis FR is similar to the on-axis FR all matter. Correcting above the transition frequency can be very helpful here.

Speaker placement correction is where you don't have speakers in proper Dolby layouts and need to "move" or virtualize the position of speakers. You could argue that phase alignment across multiple speakers plays a role here.

Then you have to ask about the level of automation.

Each setup has pros/cons. YPAO is good for room correction and great for speaker placement correction but it's not so great for multiple sub integration or full-range speaker correction. Dirac is great for room and full range speaker correction, but it doesn't know anything about placement the way that YPAO does. YPAO and Audyssey have dynamic volume support. Trinnov is the best-of-all worlds minus cost and loudness contour. Dirac can be paired with a loudness contour such as the HTP-1...

 

[bigguyca]

for me as noob: does that mean, a speaker with less sensitivity is better when i dont want to hear any hiss? tbh (1) i dont get it. when i have a low sensitive speaker, (2) i have to raise the volume higher. then i have the same hiss with the low sensitive speaker because i have to raise the volume. or not? if its too off topic let me know, then sorry and i will create a new thread.

1) True

(2) True. the same voltage level of hiss, but the signal level is higher to drive speakers that are less voltage sensitive, so S/N ratio is better, that is higher. More signal, same noise, simple arithmetic.

 

[GXAlan]

for me as noob: does that mean, a speaker with less sensitivity is better when i dont want to hear any hiss? tbh i dont get it. when i have a low sensitive speaker, i have to raise the volume higher. then i have the same hiss with the low sensitive speaker because i have to raise the volume. or not? if its too off topic let me know, then sorry and i will create a new thread.

The easiest way to think of this is residual noise in terms of microvolts AC. This is fixed as as you increase your signal (output voltage), the fixed noise is unchanged so your SNR improves.

If you look at that initial downslope, what you are seeing is that as the amp gets louder, it drowns out the residual noise. As the slope goes up, you are starting to get distortion rising slowly until you hit clipping.

Even a tube amp,has an initial improvement as the signal increases, but in this case you run out of power quickly and start running into distortion.

 

[Descartes]

First of all, I agree that the Denon is overpriced. What I wonder about is how everyone praises Dirac so much. I read from an expert in the field of room correction software that all three of the most common (YPAO, Audessey, and Dirac) can give great results if you know how to use them properly. He also opined that none of them were perfect. Interesting to note here, it seemed that he thought Audessey was the best (default on Denon) if you had multiple subs to integrate into your system and theater (as opposed to just music) was a primary concern. I am interested in everyone's response on the subject of room correction software - which I mention in this thread simply because it was a way of some commenters to stress a 'liability' of this Denon.

You forget ARC Genesis!

 

[peng]

You forget ARC Genesis!

May be he did forget, but may be not. I hate to say it, as I am using ARC Genesis, but I am waiting for their future updates to get me those so called "great results". As it is now, find me some great results based on measurements and that would make me very happy. So far, all can find are "great results" from Audyssey, Dirac Live users (including my own, that I posted on ASR, and Audioholics), but on ARCG, there might have been a few that I missed, other than that it's all by word of mouth, and naturally subjective, hardly any measurements. The potential is certainly there, as they do have the seemingly well thought out bass optimization that has the same goal as DLBC, but I think they need to improve on their implementation that must involved tons of calculations and algorithms.

 

[Descartes]

May be he did forget, but may be not. I hate to say it, as I am using ARC Genesis, but I am waiting for their future updates to get me those so called "great results". As it is now, find me some great results based on measurements and that would make me very happy. So far, all can find are "great results" from Audyssey, Dirac Live users (including my own, that I posted on ASR, and Audioholics), but on ARCG, there might have been a few that I missed, other than that it's all by word of mouth, and naturally subjective, hardly any measurements. The potential is certainly there, as they do have the seemingly well thought out bass optimization that has the same goal as DLBC, but I think they need to improve on their implementation that must involved tons of calculations and algorithms.

Here you are:

All About Anthem ARC Genesis with Nick Rich from Audio Advice | Techthusiasm Live Podcast

Nick Rich from Audio Advice is joining me for this live podcast to talk about how to run, configure, and maximize room EQ with Anthem ARC Genesis. We will ta...

www.youtube.com

 

[peng]

Here you are:

All About Anthem ARC Genesis with Nick Rich from Audio Advice | Techthusiasm Live Podcast

Nick Rich from Audio Advice is joining me for this live podcast to talk about how to run, configure, and maximize room EQ with Anthem ARC Genesis. We will ta...

www.youtube.com

Thanks, but you are kidding right? I have seen those long time ago. There are plenty of those reviews, not what I am talking about. The graphs shown are not from actual measurements, but Anthem' predicted ones only. You must know that by now!

I don't take such subjective reviews too serious. If I am to take the "trust the ears" approach, I obvious would just trust my own and not others.

Irrc, Gene mentioned once he would do a review with measurements, that was long time ago, no idea when he is going to do it, maybe he now realized he could get the great measurements he got with Audyssey? Have you seen his Audyssey Mult EQ X YT review with real measurements? Him and Matthew borh seemed very impressed with the results.

 

[peng]

@Descartes , if you are seriously about comparing the effectiveness of ARCG vs the other two popular and affordable ones, you can find a few actual measurements posted on the AVM70 thread and the ARC Genesis thread. I know you have read those, not sure if you still remember though. Outside of this, i.e. ASR, you won't find too many, though surely there must be a few I missed, I did search very hard though for real measurements such as those by REW/Mic. As to the ones you linked earlier, they always would look great, same deal for Audyssey and Dirac Live, but again, they are projected based on their calculations, prediction... etc., not too real.

Anthem AVM70 Review (AV Processor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem AVM70. It was sent to me by the company for review and costs US $3799. The AVM70 has a very modern and attractive front panel and display: Company takes full use of the large display as you see with nice icons. Importantly, the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Below are two my post of a few curves comparing ARCG, Audysssey and DLBC, for simplicity I only posted measurements for two channels:

ARC Genesis results

Room correction always sparks interesting dialog. Does it add noise, does it improve SQ, is one better than the other.... Well I don't intend to chat about any of that. But, I am posting my results using ARC in my AVM 70 for those who care about such things. The Quick Measure feature is great...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Anthem AVM70 Review (AV Processor)

Could you please try run the test file I mentioned, and measure the SPL with the REW logger? That is - follow the method I described in my post #812 ? Do it both with and without ARCG enabled.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Beershaun posted a few of his too:

ARC Genesis results

You can get good results, but in my experience, what typically would take hours to tweak for decent results would take days with ARC Genesis. In terms of that, it really is a frustrating RC software to use. The interface looks beautiful, and the mic stand too, but for results, not so easy...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Frank207be]

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my Denon A1H with Dirac. After adding my 4th subwoofer I've been experimenting with DLBC and crossovers, curtains & boost. I'm still struggling with the 125Hz-200Hz range though but that'll undoubtedly be caused by the speaker distance to the AV wall (SBIR). Needs some experimenting...

 

[pkgriffith814]

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my Denon A1H with Dirac. After adding my 4th subwoofer I've been experimenting with DLBC and crossovers, curtains & boost. I'm still struggling with the 125Hz-200Hz range though but that'll undoubtedly be caused by the speaker distance to the AV wall (SBIR). Needs some experimenting...

I love mine especially for the price I paid. Using 3 sub now - was originally going to use just two Martin Logan 1100x's and sell my Velodyne DD15 but decided to put the DD15 back in because it adds some good low-end on movies. Sounds great whether I use pure direct and just use the two 1100x's for the lower end (Have KEF R7 Meta's) or using Dirac and all 13 channels in a 7.3.6 setup. Now just need to sell my Anthem AVM70.

 

[Oddball]

Lol this thread seems great - hope that Mr Peng prevails as he actually has some valuable insights and measurements. As far as my contribution, it is not scientific at all - Denon AH1 is a great AVR. 3800h is also a great one. My AV-10 plus bunch of amps is arguably a better combo, but in reality not really that much (if at all) for an average setup centered around the TXH crossover. With Dirac and Audy on board and flawless design, this is an MVP by all means.

Not sure what YPAO did lately, but would be interesting to hear - have one of their AVRs (the one that starts with 4 something) collecting dust and might need some marketing pitches to sell it. Must say it was not a great experience I had with YPAO and could not wait until it ended.

 

[Frank207be]

Lol this thread seems great - hope that Mr Peng prevails as he actually has some valuable insights and measurements. As far as my contribution, it is not scientific at all - Denon AH1 is a great AVR. 3800h is also a great one. My AV-10 plus bunch of amps is arguably a better combo, but in reality not really that much (if at all) for an average setup centered around the TXH crossover. With Dirac and Audy on board and flawless design, this is an MVP by all means.

Not sure what YPAO did lately, but would be interesting to hear - have one of their AVRs (the one that starts with 4 something) collecting dust and might need some marketing pitches to sell it. Must say it was not a great experience I had with YPAO and could not wait until it ended.

Surround wise (7.4.6) I'd probably be equally happy with the X6800H but it was released one year later and I couldn't wait. I was sick and tired of the lackluster bass management of my previous AVR.

Since D&M introduced 4 independent subwoofer outputs in affordable AVR's last year, I won't settle for anything less.

 

[peng]

Meanwhile I'm enjoying my Denon A1H with Dirac. After adding my 4th subwoofer I've been experimenting with DLBC and crossovers, curtains & boost. I'm still struggling with the 125Hz-200Hz range though but that'll undoubtedly be caused by the speaker distance to the AV wall (SBIR). Needs some experimenting...

Any REW graphs to show so we can compare notes for potential tweaks for further improvements?

 

[Frank207be]

Any REW graphs to show so we can compare notes for potential tweaks for further improvements?

Yes that's the plan when I have the time *or* when the A1H is available. My 2 daughters just bought new vinyl (Taylor Swift) and they're listening now. They're seriously spoiled LOL! Anyway I finally reached a level where the bass response puts a serious grin on my face: I feel 10Hz (I can clip my XLS1002 doing so) but the system plays clean, tight and hard from 13Hz up to the crossover frequency.

OTOH I have still have so much more to do:
Build a riser for my living room HT.
Build new enclosures for my dual B&C21SW152 (part of the new riser)
Build new enclosures for 4x Faital Pro 18XL1800 (front subwoofers)
Build new enclosures for my old 2x2 Visaton TIW400 as support for my surround speakers (part of the new riser)

Then comes the hard part: Build new capable LCR speakers and furniture for my new AV wall. All have to be free of resonances at >105dB.

 

[peng]

Yes that's the plan when I have the time *or* when the A1H is available. My 2 daughters just bought new vinyl (Taylor Swift) and they're listening now. They're seriously spoiled LOL! Anyway I finally reached a level where the bass response puts a serious grin on my face: I feel 10Hz (I can clip my XLS1002 doing so) but the system plays clean, tight and hard from 13Hz up to the crossover frequency.

OTOH I have still have so much more to do:
Build a riser for my living room HT.
Build new enclosures for my dual B&C21SW152 (part of the new riser)
Build new enclosures for 4x Faital Pro 18XL1800 (front subwoofers)
Build new enclosures for my old 2x2 Visaton TIW400 as support for my surround speakers (part of the new riser)

Then comes the hard part: Build new capable LCR speakers and furniture for my new AV wall. All have to be free of resonances at >105dB.

Are you using any of the internal amps?

Also, I wonder if the Taylor swift vinyl's recording quality is as good as the digital versions, that I believe has high resolutions from HDtracks.com but apparently not available for Canadians.