Onkyo TX-RZ50 Review (Home Theater AVR)

[dlaloum]

Does the RZ50 have the option to work as preamplifier processor, if all channels are connected to an external amp? Thanks!

The pre-out is always active... so yes.

But there is no reason not to use it to power height/surround speakers - even if you find benefits to using external amps for the Front L/R (and possibly C)

 

[SorenTyson]

In the review on pg1, the SINAD measurements are the pre-amp outputs correct? And the AVR SINAD at 5W is the measuremet of the amp outputs correct?

With the SINAD being in the 70's for the RZ50 amp outputs, is everyone running external amps for all 5,7 or 9 of their speakers? I understand the impact of Dirac is worth so much for sound that everyone is overlooking the SINAD when they use the RZ50 amp outputs. Perhaps our interest in SINAD really doesn't matter, or at least for movies? Those using the RZ50 just for stereo 2.1 sound I can see using pre-amp outputs, but how many people are using all pre-amp outputs for 5,7,9 speaker setups? Likely no one?

If I only had $650 to spend, and both were at that price, would you choose an Onkyo NR7100 or Denon X3600 ? I suppose everyone would choose the NR7100 for Dirac versus the X3600 with better SINAD. Rating an AVR based on pre-amp outputs kinda defeats the purpose of having an amp in the same box....

I use the HDMI in and as I read the charts it should be 78 sinad. I perceive no noise at my usage. Not sure what the combined sinad would be if adding a Poweramp. I think adding external amps makes sense if you need more power, but not to chase sinad.

Sinad measurement is great for objective comparisons, but I would not chose one avr over another based on that alone, unless of course if one of them totally fails.

 

[YaskataSt]

Please tell me if something is wrong with this system based on the RZ50:
AVR: RZ50
Amp: Emotiva BasX A3 for the front 3 channels (do you think it's worth it to connect the central channel to the external amp, or the two fronts are enough?)
Front Speakers: Kef R3 or R3 meta

That would be for a start, I will include central and rears later on.

Thanks!

 

[SorenTyson]

Please tell me if something is wrong with this system based on the RZ50:
AVR: RZ50
Amp: Emotiva BasX A3 for the front 3 channels (do you think it's worth it to connect the central channel to the external amp, or the two fronts are enough?)
Front Speakers: Kef R3 or R3 meta

That would be for a start, I will include central and rears later on.

Thanks!

If you have the Emotiva already, then go ahead

Otherwise I’d spend that money on a sub, and see if you need external amplification.

Not sure how much power an avr really needs once the bass is taken care of externally

 

[YaskataSt]

If you have the Emotiva already, then go ahead

Otherwise I’d spend that money on a sub, and see if you need external amplification.

Not sure how much power an avr really needs once the bass is taken care of externally

Thanks! What do you mean bass is taken care externally? Wouldn't it go through the AVR as well? Or you mean getting an Active Sub?

 

[dlaloum]

I use the HDMI in and as I read the charts it should be 78 sinad. I perceive no noise at my usage. Not sure what the combined sinad would be if adding a Poweramp. I think adding external amps makes sense if you need more power, but not to chase sinad.

Sinad measurement is great for objective comparisons, but I would not chose one avr over another based on that alone, unless of course if one of them totally fails.

When you look into audibility thresholds, you have to seperate out signal/noise from THD... noise is more audible than harmonic distortion.... typically noise specs are much better than THD specs!

I use the HDMI in, and use external amps for front L/C/R - and the internal amps for surround and heights (running 5.1.4)

My front power amps (Crown XLS2500) are not highly rated for SINAD, (measured by Amirm in the 70's) - but their S/N spec is 105db.... in actual use, no noise is audible under any conditions, and sound quality is on a par with other "audiophile" amps I have tried.

 

[aggie113]

In the review on pg1, the SINAD measurements are the pre-amp outputs correct? And the AVR SINAD at 5W is the measuremet of the amp outputs correct?

With the SINAD being in the 70's for the RZ50 amp outputs, is everyone running external amps for all 5,7 or 9 of their speakers? I understand the impact of Dirac is worth so much for sound that everyone is overlooking the SINAD when they use the RZ50 amp outputs. Perhaps our interest in SINAD really doesn't matter, or at least for movies? Those using the RZ50 just for stereo 2.1 sound I can see using pre-amp outputs, but how many people are using all pre-amp outputs for 5,7,9 speaker setups? Likely no one?

If I only had $650 to spend, and both were at that price, would you choose an Onkyo NR7100 or Denon X3600 ? I suppose everyone would choose the NR7100 for Dirac versus the X3600 with better SINAD. Rating an AVR based on pre-amp outputs kinda defeats the purpose of having an amp in the same box....

Wanted the DIRAC from the Onkyo but not wild about the 4 ohm output that would be best for driving my Polk LSi15/LCi/LSi9 main setup. Rather than spend my full budget on a receiver that could do it all I decided to split duties. Power will be handled with a Buckeye amp and next go around I can pick a receiver based on processing instead of power. Of course I'm assuming the amp lasts through several upgrades

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

That's might be total BS, please don't fall for that too easily without seeing more collaborating/supporting facts and data! I have not seen evidence to support such a claim. Good thing you did add the word "appears", otherwise, no offense, you could have helped contribute to more untrue, or at least misleading internet hearsay. Very few expensive power amps can truly double down output into 4 ohms, let alone AVRs, unless on pick and choose the different test conditions, or the readers misinterpreted the results so the set of numbers were not apples to apples comparisons. That happens all the time because there are more readers who don't have enough knowledge to interpret such results properly for apples to apples comparison purposes, than those who do.

Next time when you compared such results take a good look at the test conditions, and do NOT compare bench test measurements using 1 kHz sweep (that's very short duration) outputs at 1% THD to the output specified by the manufacturer that is based on 20-20000 Hz at much lower THD such as 0.05% THD and are full longer duration such as the following from FTC rule Pt 432.3:



Do you believe audiovision.de's numbers were based on the above test conditions? I would say that could be the case in dreams only. I know you are an Onkyo fan, me too even though I have not owned one yet, but as ASR members we naturally should trust, and even defends science lol..



True, but it is mainly because people couldn't interpret the information, such as specs and measurements properly based on such "little information" and often enough, people's limited technical knowledge. The internet is full or such untrue, half true information, sad, but is the reality.

Edit: For clarity about my point, I guess I should add an example (just one example) of how one might have gotten the wrong impression of their favorite amp's output could almost "double down" by comparing manufacturer's specs to measured results. The two are, unfortunately based on different test conditions as shown below:

Pioneer LX-805:

POWER OUTPUT 150W x 11 (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20kHz, 0.08% THD, 2-ch driven, FTC)

As measured by Audiovision.de, according to your quoted number:

267 Watt / 4 Ohm / 1 kHz Sinus

One may say okay, 267/150 = 1.78, that's almost 2, so it nearly double down!!

Now if one looks at the devil in the details, the specified 150 W was based on full audio bandwidth and at 0.08%, and is based on FTC rule, whereas the 267 W measured by Audiovision.de was based on 1 kHz (most likely a quick sweep that only last seconds..) and was at 1% THD, that means it would have well passed the knee point, and that means it was well into clipping.

I asked Amir not long ato about his sweep test's duration, see post#149:

Apollon NCx500ST Stereo Amplifier Review

Wow! Really great performance and value. Want one but to lazy to pull the 90lb Rotel out of the rack.:(

www.audiosciencereview.com

So no, that's not really a real double down scenario, not even close.

Reminds me of spec sheets like this:

Between no THD specs @ 4 ohm rating (though at least it's rated 200W 20-20k) and "sonic quality is subjective", I can hear heads exploding now!

In spite of said discrepancies, this amp works exceedingly well to unload the tougher to drive load M-L electrostats from my AVR. Noise and distortion are not perceivable to me, thus more proof to me that even a typical 0.1% THD(+N?) @ FL is fine, never mind 0.005% from the DAC.

 

[peng]

Reminds me of spec sheets like this:

View attachment 332348

Between no THD specs @ 4 ohm rating (though at least it's rated 200W 20-20k) and "sonic quality is subjective", I can hear heads exploding now!

In spite of said discrepancies, this amp works exceedingly well to unload the tougher to drive load M-L electrostats from my AVR. Noise and distortion are not perceivable to me, thus more proof to me that even a typical 0.1% THD(+N?) @ FL is fine, never mind 0.005% from the DAC.

First of all, the spec about "400 W transformer" raises flag right away. Transformers output rating should be in VA, not W, competent electrical designers, engineers would know that. For details, anyone can just google but stick with credible sources.

Back to the double down topic, yes you picked a good example that shows how futile it is, to assume a power amp is "stout", or can claim "high current" only if it can double down. In this example, if this Bedini is in fact a real class A amplifier, there is no way it can double down, based on the "400 W" transformer.

For class A operation, the efficiency of the amp is between 25 to 40% maximum. If it is rated 100 W conservatively (not really based on the relatively high THD of 0.15%) into 8 ohms, assuming that is for two channel driven, then the transformer should have been rated at least 100X2/0.5 = 400 VA, so how can it do 200 W X2 into 4 ohms? And, I am using 0.5 as the overall efficiency for the class A amp, that's being very generous.

If you measure the output into a 4 ohm resistor, I think it could in fact do 200 WPC, two channel driven, if it is for a very short duration as short as milliseconds, or may be a few seconds but I doubt that. May be the 100 W 8 ohm, 200 W 4 ohm specs are for mono, that is, only one channel driven at a time.

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

The Bedini amp is a 35 year old discrete amplifier design with several feedback tricks discussed in the marketing blurb for reducing harmonic distortion. I believe most of the distortion reducing techniques are built into the IC amplifiers used in modern receivers. The class "A" (notice the quotes) designation is an engineering "trick" whereas the amp idles @ just 50W and has a sliding bias scheme whereas it will be class A for low-mid volume levels (significantly higher bias than Class AB amps), then it "slides" the transistor bias into pure Class B mode for transients so the top of the waveform isn't clipped.

For the record, I can't tell the difference between my receiver (105W rated @ 8 ohm) driving the Sequel's vs the Bedini. I only added the external Bedini amp because I was forced to by the speaker configuration whereas I'm using 11 speakers and it didn't allow having the rear surrounds as the only "pre-only" output. The Sequels are 4 ohm typical and as low as 1.6 ohm at 20k and 2.5 ohms around 350Hz (3.2 oms 70-180Hz.) Audyssey sets the fronts at +9 dB versus the 8 ohm rear heights at -10 dB, so the difference in efficiency is pretty clear (both are 9' from listening position.)

 

[GXAlan]

There is a new firmware update that enables Pre mAmp mode. It will be interesting to see if this helps the SINAD keep going up after 2V or not.

Pioneer, Elite, Integra, Onkyo AV receivers get major update | Digital Trends

A major update to the firmware of Pioneer, Elite, Integra, and Onkyo AV receivers will enable new surround formats and new streaming audio features.

www.digitaltrends.com

 

[dlaloum]

There is a new firmware update that enables Pre mAmp mode. It will be interesting to see if this helps the SINAD keep going up after 2V or not.

Pioneer, Elite, Integra, Onkyo AV receivers get major update | Digital Trends

A major update to the firmware of Pioneer, Elite, Integra, and Onkyo AV receivers will enable new surround formats and new streaming audio features.

www.digitaltrends.com

We have yet to see the siblings of this Onkyo tier (RZ70, 8.4, 805) tested on a lab bench...

Any word out there of a volunteer offering one up for testing?

 

[Abajams]

I went to buy open box RZ 50 Excl. condition for $791 end up buying Denon X3800h for $1150 for its features. I have 2008 Onkyo 7.1, Klipsch RP280s(FR,FL) and RP 450(C), R40Ms and R50M surrounds.
Crossover 80HZ THX all.
First day: setup Audyssey using three seating positions, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume off, results: terrible, sounded as toy receiver compared to my 16 years old Onkyo, no way going back.
Second day calibration using free Audyssey: used mid chair boundaries' only turned on dynamicEQ, DynamicVol., ECO off, started to like it.
Calibration Results: Front and center speakers was set full range crossovers, others to 60HZ by Audyssey, distances looks good, sound level more balanced, it is working.

Comparison: Onkyo has richer sound and joy to listen to music. But, X3800h getting close with Dyn.EQ & Vol. on, articulation much easier to understand than onkyo (no subtitle anymore), channel separation better, Auro3D is a joy for music room is filled out with nice channel separation, Dynamic vol. set to mid level made human voice close to natural (90%) which sounded like cheap radio voice without it.

I think I will keep it as it is future proof but Denon should have done a better job

 

[ban25]

I went to buy open box RZ 50 Excl. condition for $791 end up buying Denon X3800h for $1150 for its features. I have 2008 Onkyo 7.1, Klipsch RP280s(FR,FL) and RP 450(C), R40Ms and R50M surrounds.
Crossover 80HZ THX all.
First day: setup Audyssey using three seating positions, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume off, results: terrible, sounded as toy receiver compared to my 16 years old Onkyo, no way going back.
Second day calibration using free Audyssey: used mid chair boundaries' only turned on dynamicEQ, DynamicVol., ECO off, started to like it.
Calibration Results: Front and center speakers was set full range crossovers, others to 60HZ by Audyssey, distances looks good, sound level more balanced, it is working.

Comparison: Onkyo has richer sound and joy to listen to music. But, X3800h getting close with Dyn.EQ & Vol. on, articulation much easier to understand than onkyo (no subtitle anymore), channel separation better, Auro3D is a joy for music room is filled out with nice channel separation, Dynamic vol. set to mid level made human voice close to natural (90%) which sounded like cheap radio voice without it.

I think I will keep it as it is future proof but Denon should have done a better job

Honestly, the RZ50 is probably a better deal, especially at that price. That said, you should be able to get excellent performance from the X3800H, it just takes some tweaking. First, you should buy the $20 Audyssey MultEQ Editor app from D+M Group on the Apple/Android app store. This app will let you edit Audyssey's target curve to your liking, and importantly, will allow you to disable Mid-Range Compensation, which ducks audio at 2 kHz by default to very adverse result. I'm confident if you add a +6 dB gain at the low-end and turn off MRC, you will be happy with the result.

 

[Abajams]

Honestly, the RZ50 is probably a better deal, especially at that price. That said, you should be able to get excellent performance from the X3800H, it just takes some tweaking. First, you should buy the $20 Audyssey MultEQ Editor app from D+M Group on the Apple/Android app store. This app will let you edit Audyssey's target curve to your liking, and importantly, will allow you to disable Mid-Range Compensation, which ducks audio at 2 kHz by default to very adverse result. I'm confident if you add a +6 dB gain at the low-end and turn off MRC, you will be happy with the result.

never done it before, nor understands those curves, but will try. I think $1158 not bad for x3800h new
thanks

 

[Abajams]

Mobile App definitely an improvement over installed one and worth the money. Resulted in some changes to surround crossover, now, flow btw speakers easy and smooth, channel separation & distribution better, voices natural, dialogue even more clear. Happy with choice.

Thanks for all feedbacks.

 

[Axelpowa]

Hi guys, one question about the option

Digital Filter Option: Soft, sharp, slow, auto

Have you played with it and noticed any difference?
In that case, with which type of content.

I have it to Auto

Regards!

 

[Romish]

If it is far from being perfect, how did it win "EISA BEST BUY AV RECEIVER 2023-2024"? Did they test newer modification (M2)?

 

[dlaloum]

If it is far from being perfect, how did it win "EISA BEST BUY AV RECEIVER 2023-2024"? Did they test newer modification (M2)?

It is a very high value, feature for $ offering - its flaws are minor, and never encountered in actual use...

 

[SlaughterX]

Any owners of RZ50 that can share thoughts of the AVR as of late 2023? I've been wondering what AVR to get in this price range, but seems like there isn't right option if reading forums/reviews.

I have been using the RZ50 for over a year and I have no complaints whatsoever. However, if I were on the market for an AVR for now I would probably go for the Pioneer Elite 505 since it's on sale for $750 and it's basically the same as the RZ50.