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MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

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bboris77

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Thanks for the prompt responses. So, if the null test conclusively proves that the MQA version is not identical to the original audio recording in the PCM format, I just do not understand how they can claim that all of the musical content is retained.

Is the missing audio inaudible by humans? If it is audible, even if it is recording hiss that was present in the original recording, by which authority can anyone claim that this is not part of the musical content? I am just using this as an example because I really do not know what part of the signal MQA gets rid of.

As for deblurring claim, again, how can one claim to extract more clarity from the original without modifying the original PCM file? It seems totally paradoxical to me. The only way I could see this work would be if you worked with analogue tapes and claimed that PCM encoding introduces this digital blur. I think I am getting a sense of deja vu when it comes to others making this claim about retaining original samples and eliminating digital temporal blur ;)
 

amirm

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Sure, I know what they say.. That still doesn’t mean I know what it means though.. In the deeper sense I mean.. technically it’s clear enough. What is meaningful in retaining all of the music? Just because some people want to have the ultrasonic content?
And more bit depth.
 

amirm

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2. If MQA claims that they encode whatever they define as music (let's not go there) in a lossless fashion, would it not be possible to test this claim by nulling the original PCM file and the MQA version? Assuming this is true, should these two files not produce identical output?
In analog domain or digital? I can produce a perceptually lossless file that when played would sound like the original but the samples will be completely different! In the case of MQA they reconstruct the ultrasonic spectrum with similar quantization noise floor to the original but most like not identical.
 

voodooless

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by which authority can anyone claim that this is not part of the musical content?

Mostly because you can correlate the ultrasonic spectrum with the audible one. Check out a few of Amir’s video for examples. Nobody knows how it sounds though..

As for deblurring claim, again, how can one claim to extract more clarity from the original without modifying the original PCM file?

See, this is exactly what the MQA marketing does. You still think it mathematically lossless, while it is not. Most will just gloss over this and only retain the term lossless, without actually having an Idea what is meant.
 

dmac6419

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When I was in elementary school, our teacher was late so we all went to town and created a riot in the classroom. :) Then this stranger comes in and sits in the teacher's chair and waits for things to calm down and of course it did not. He eventually raised his voice and we all sat down. In calm voice he then said: "every classroom needs a clown. you should try to NOT be that one."

I suggest as a new member you first contribute something of value instead of commentary that makes you like that clown. To be sure, we need clowns as fodders to get the real technical answers out but I suggest you don't volunteer to be the one.

Forgot to mention that the stranger was a temporary teacher and we only saw him for that day. Shame as I am sure he had a lot more wisdom to share with us.
Ouch
 

MDT

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Out of interest, has anyone compared the analog output from a fully unfolded mqa track with the analog output from the FLAC lossless of the same track from the same streaming service? Or even a different service for that matter.
 

danadam

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Thomas savage

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I hear you and read the criticism elsewhere from time to time. Given a choice of making a few detractors happy and being on the right side of correct technology understanding, I take the latter. My ethics in upholding what science and engineering say is far more important than getting people to like me/ASR.

So you know your point is not lost on me, someone reached out to me to see if I would be on a a zoom panel discussing MQA. I told him no. And that the only answer people want to hear is that "MQA sucks." Anything else just creates negativity. That made the moderator rethink the idea of holding that panel as well!

It is for this reason that sometimes I stop posting here. It seems that people don't want better understanding of technology. They just want to hear who is for and against MQA. The concept that I don't care about that battle doesn't compute with them. The fact that I have done a video talking about how undecoded MQA damages the content doesn't penetrate. The fact that I have said MQA is likely going to die with 2 out of 10 chances of success goes in one ear and comes out the other. The fact that I predicted major players like Amazon and Apple would do high-res without MQA and that has come true, seems to be long forgotten as well. They just come out and say what you said: "Amir is strongly defending MQA." Facts be damned.

So it is clear, OP is not technical. Neither are vast majority of people opining about this discussion. So it is natural that they say things that are simply incorrect. Do you really wish these incorrect technical assessments to be left alone here without me correcting them? I sure hope not or we are wasting our time here and just seem to want political victories, not a search for understanding.
I remember at the very start of the MQA discussions when so many were and are still losing their minds and indeed precious time going round and round the same merry go round you said it would likely fail , that you had experience in that field enough to know how hard it was for MQA to be a fraction of what people feared it would become.

You were right , where you have become unstuck and why there's a lot of disharmony around your position is because you have placed ASR on a consumer first footing and your approach to MQA from the start was quite establishment / Bob Stewart ' benefit of the doubt ' orientated.

I understand why that was , you respect AES fellow Bob and indeed respect the authority that comes with his background vs random dudes on the Internet.

A unfortunate collision of those two things , you being a consumer champion while also representing something more ' institutional ' has occurred.

Your position on MQA was nuanced , not something these formus deal with very well ! People read your words with prejudice on this subject, you can't really reason with that as they are attacking what you represent to them rather than what you actually write , due to you being firmly put in the Bob camp ( firmly but unfairly! ) and again this turns to acute grievance when amplified by ' betrayal ' , your betrayal of them as they see it .

Its not your fault but you could of handled all this much better by maintaining your consumer principles while throwing caveats of reason in support of your opinions that are supportive or obviously seen to be acting in the favour of MQA and Bob Stewart.

After all Amirm you have totally condemned speakers and other products for far less reason than all thats on offer surrounding MQA and to the point of ' dont worry about MQA as its doomed to fail in a near impossible marketplace ' you could argue the same for a ton of obscure products that get reviewed here so that was never going to fly .
 

amirm

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Are you serious?

Unless they name the people who peer-reviewed that paper, this claim is laughable IMHO. It has been shown time and again, in all different kinds of scientific fields, how journal "peer reviews" can often be but a bad joke, with even reputable journals regularly including "peer reviewed" papers that had been entirely computer generated nonesense (ie. a glorified, scientific sounding lorem ipsum text).

What the heck you talking about? OP claimed in his second video that the paper was not peer reviewed. He said nothing about quality of said review being poor -- he is not qualified remotely to make such assessment given that he has no signal processing background. I showed with exact documentation how he was wrong.

Now you are getting into an off-topic of what peer review means and there, show that you don't understand the topic at all. I have had people on my team that were in the peer review board of major signal processing publications. Their job is not in any form or fashion to validate the conclusions or even the data in the paper. They have no ability to do that. It is not like they go and repeat the experiments, gather their own data, and then use that to counter or approve the paper. That would be absurd.

The job of the peer reviewers is to uphold the high standards of the publication. For example, you can't write a paper with sighted subjectivist tests and claim that cables make a difference. That would be rejected by the peer reviewer because he would see that you are not using a controlled test. But if you showed a controlled test with statistical analysis and all the required documentation that showed cables made a difference, then they would have no choice but to allow publication even though the conclusions may not be something they agreed with.

The paper by Stuart and Craven met that bar easily if you bother to read it. They have written other authoritative papers for the Journal below so very well know the standards used there. Heck, they may themselves be in peer review board for other papers there!

So cut out the lay arguments and generalizations here.

Trying to find out something about the credentials of the co-author also comes out empty aside from the few lines on him at the end of the paper. For a company who regularly pushes the "credentials rethoric", this is pretty thin.

You not only demonstrate there that you know nothing about who does research in audio, but seriously lack any skills to use Google search. I will help you with that:

1. List of his patents and importantly, the companies he worked for that he assigned them to: https://patents.justia.com/inventor/peter-g-craven

2. Hits from AES:
https://www.aes.org/awards/?ID=1752
"In 1999, Peter G. Craven was presented with the AES Publications Award for their paper "A High-Rate Buried-Data Channel for Audio CD," vol. 43, no. 1/2 (1995 January/February). "

Likely the technique used for MQA to embed ultrasonic spectrum in CD container.

https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=7096
"Lossless Coding for Audio Discs"

Kind of related to this topic, don't you think? ;)

https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/journal/?elib=20457

"The Gentle Art of Dithering"

Absolutely essential in embedding the MQA bitstream in base layer.

So please sit back and don't spit in the soup.
 

amirm

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A unfortunate collision of those two things , you being a consumer champion while also representing something more ' institutional ' has occurred.
Your words are wise Thomas as usual. From consumer point of view though, MQA has been provided to me and all of its users free of cost. I play it without paying a cent for it. None of the people who complain about MQA have been harmed in any way by MQA. The harm they say will come in the future which as you said, I predicted wouldn't come to pass and has not.

Something you didn't mention but I value is elegance in efficient coding of music. I have always considered PCM format to be highly wasteful. As a person who has spent decades optimizing technology, it seems like such a poor solution. Going from 44.1 kHz to 88.2 kHz doubles the data rate yet there is hardly any musical information to be gained from that doubling. In that regard, MQA's approach of noticing the statistical aspects of music and encoding that is appealing to me. It is simply neat!

Folks expect me to operate from their vantage view, but I can't. I have to operate from my own with all of my experiences and sense of fairness and evenhandedness about the topics being discussed.
 

dmac6419

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Your words are wise Thomas as usual. From consumer point of view though, MQA has been provided to me and all of its users free of cost. I play it without paying a cent for it. None of the people who complain about MQA have been harmed in any way by MQA. The harm they say will come in the future which as you said, I predicted wouldn't come to pass and has not.

Something you didn't mention but I value is elegance in efficient coding of music. I have always considered PCM format to be highly wasteful. As a person who has spent decades optimizing technology, it seems like such a poor solution. Going from 44.1 kHz to 88.2 kHz doubles the data rate yet there is hardly any musical information to be gained from that doubling. In that regard, MQA's approach of noticing the statistical aspects of music and encoding that is appealing to me. It is simply neat!

Folks expect me to operate from their vantage view, but I can't. I have to operate from my own with all of my experiences and sense of fairness and evenhandedness about the topics being discussed.
If you would just say MQA is the Devil you would be God in their universe.
 

MDT

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Daverich4

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No I didn't. You wanted to scare people by saying MQA is going to take over the world so people should be afraid of it despite its tiny piece of land it exists on today. I answered that the big boys have already spoken and didn't adopt MQA so your prediction that the world is going to adopt MQA is dead wrong.

Warners, Universal and Sony are all supporting MQA. Do you have some other “big boy” in mind that isn’t?
 

Grooved

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I don't encourage anyone to read anything from Brian Lucey on any listening tests results. I know because I have discussed it with him. See this starting post for example on what he has written: https://gearspace.com/board/mastering-forum/1171365-mqa-discussion-denver-rmaf-10.html#post12952542

"Where as mastered for iTunes is harmonically cold and loses some low volume/low end information, actually altering the groove to make everything sound like a nerdy white wedding band, MQA brightens the high-mids in the Mid section while thinning the low-mids on the Sides. "

You believe this?

Harmonically cold? MQA brightens the high-mids? Thinning low-mids? You really believe this kind of subjectivist nonsense? I sure hope not.

He needs to start learning to use blind controlled test before he speaks on any topic like this.

This is the problem with MQA. People become completely different when it comes to this topic. If I had brought up those quotes in any other context, people would throw stones at Brian Lucey. Have him fight with MQA and all of a sudden he is a beacon of audio science when it comes to matters related to MQA. Don't do that please.

Before telling you what I got by listening to MQA, I've read your post, and I'm sorry to not be able to tell anything on iTunes masters as I don't use it, so you may be right on this one.

Now, I've also read the two posts above, and think that when Brian Lucey made a mistake by saying "Let’s just sell the 24 bit files at the mastering session sample rate " which can lead us to an error thinking it all depends on mastering, which is wrong, because mastering itself can depends on recording and mixing sessions.
So when you asked why 24bit and not 16bit, it's not a problem of dynamic of the stereo file while mastering, it's because 24bit was needed for recording/mixing, and by that, it's kept while mastering (and can also be needed as some gears in mastering will only work at 24bit).
By doing use of 24/44.1, he respects the orginal bit depth and sample rate, and it's more easy to do it now than before because some plugins that were working better with higher SR are now working better at lower SR while internal oversampling themselves.
Unless I didn't understand your question, you can't tell him 16bit would be enough while the fact to keep 24bit goes in the sense of what everybody is asking for : the real file created in the studio.

What I get is that you both started to battle with your "extreme" experiences that don't share something on this case, instead of trying to find what you have in common that could help. We can't forget that we need both of your works to be all able to listen music ;)
If I supposed that it was a battle, it's because you only respond to my post quoting this part, but not my question, and not the part where I said that Lucey have said somewhere that used in the whole chain from recording sessions, MQA may be an intresting technology.
I don't remember where he say that, but the way I read what's come from your link, he's not talking about the encoding they choose by itself, but about what comes out and you listen, and the difference may not come from the encoding but more from the processing while decoding and up to the filter in the DAC.

I'm sorry to say this, as I know your experience and have all the respect for your review, but you were not more perfect than him by assuming he would not tell the difference between ACC 256 and CD. It may be right, it may be wrong, but I can confirm you that on tracks I know perfectly, but on some kind of music and not all, I get a 100% result in ABX even after 100 tests between AAC 320 and FLAC, so I would think he may be able to.
And on the same track, doing the test between FLAC and MQA, I can find which one it is.

So back to MQA listening :
I may not have use the same words, but I will tell you what I got and I'm waiting for what some other sound engineers think (I've been lucky to work in recording studios even if worked more on live events) :
- in the first listening experience, I was kind of excited, but I couldn't tell if it was an improvement because it was pleasant on some tracks, not on others
- after more and more listening (and I don't only use Tidal, but also Qobuz and Amazon HD), the main thing I heard, still on some tracks only, is the pre-ringing change.
A track part with mainly a bass and drums is clearly giving me the impression of : more dry, bigger attack, and I started to imagine the use of a transient exciter, which actually is not needded if you can kill some pre-ringing as it gives a bit the same impression than increasing transient by deleting what can "cover" it (it's not really covering it, but the fact that hearing another thing before any transient will make you hear less clearly the transient itself coming after that).
But, I started to think that you can do a bit of that while creating the master (and it made me remember that the company that created Soundscope had also a software to erase the pre-ringing of any track), and so it was not really comparable to a PCM file because MQA looks more like encoding+processing and not encoding only, and by that, I started to ask myslef if we can call it "what the artist want you to hear"
But I don't want to take a full conclusion based only on what I listen, I want the truth in measurement also.


Now, regarding test, if it can help, I found a way to record in the digital domain a MQA stream, and get a FLAC file that contains the MQA tag (by recording, no piracy of files). I need to check that recording method is right by doing the same with 2L free tracks and check if the recorded file is the same than the original one. Do you think that it's they are the same, it can confirm that the recording method is right ?
It could help to get parts of any song that would be ideal to test, and not be limited on 2L tracks.

PS : I'm still waiting for you to confirm or not if the OP file that got a blue light, while it was a "not acceptable file" with error in encoder log shows that the Blue light can be lying to the customers
 
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raistlin65

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Rosewind

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Very interesting discussions here. I will refrain from interfering as I sense that new members are not welcome to participate. I will stay on the other side of the fence looking in to see what happens here on ASR. Cheers!
 

ebslo

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Sure. It is all about context. If the discussion is whether you can losslessly encode full rectangular bandwidth of 88.2/96 kHz PCM into 44.1/48 kHz, the answer is no, you can't do that losslessly. That's what I said in what you quoted from me.

If the discussion is, as was the latter post, "marketing department is calling MQA lossless, how can they do that?" the answer is that there are different types of lossless so they can get away with that claim to some extent. I proceeded to give different examples of it.

So be careful about what you mean. I am when there is ambiguity by using the term "mathematically lossless." See this example from yesterday:

I suggest adopting this terminology so that it is clear what is being talked about.
Thank you for clarifying. My initial interpretation seemed improbable, but now appears to have been correct.
 

Grooved

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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/origami-png.132366/
Eh, no. MQA in that graph is saying that will encode and deliver everything that is in that music clip as defined by its peak signal at every frequency. And they even encode more than they need with that guard band.

That they don't encode empty space (CD rectangle or otherwise) that is not used by said music is of no concern to any unless you want to burn bits to hold nothing.

Does everybody understand this? It is key to their response. They are saying that their format is "lossless" because they encode the music and give it all the bits it needs including its ultrasonic spectrum.

The only argument against them then is that they are not lossless because they don't encode empty space. Which is what OP attempted to do (filled the empty space and then wondered why it couldn't encode it).

Sorry but unless I'm wrong, we can't use this graph to explain anything, as it shows audio bandwidth up to 96kHz and pretends to encapsulate C under B, while MQA patent says that audio bandwidth recorded stops at 48kHz (96kHz sample rate).
Can someone explain me how they make an encapsulation of 48 to 96 kHz part while they never recorded that part ?
 
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bboris77

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I agree that it is very important to try and avoid looking at things in terms of binary oppositions, however tempting it is. We are all guilty of it sometimes (I know I am), but generally speaking, things rarely tend to fall in "pure evil" vs "pure good" category in the real world.

Personally, my issue was never with MQA, but with Tidal for using MQA tracks instead of original PCM FLACs for their lossless HiFi tier. Even then, it was a question of principle rather than me being able to actually hear any real difference to be honest.

I totally understand @amirm's fascination with MQA's approach to encoding. As a consumer and an audio-enthusiast, I am also interested in seeing the audio industry move beyond PCM at some point in time, but it will have to be in terms of both recording and reproduction if we are to see a significant leap in fidelity. You cannot conjure things up in reproduction that were never captured in the first place during the recording process. Who knows, perhaps some lessons learned from MQA's approach will be incorporated in whatever comes after PCM.

Even though I have fired off fairly severe criticism at both Tidal and MQA for their marketing shenanigans in the last few weeks, I can concede that it may be unfair to oversimplify things and label MQA as pure marketing DRM scheme with no benefit to the science of audio recording and reproduction whatsoever.
 
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