Revel F228Be Review (Speaker)

[Ata]

It is measured playing two tones at the same time and checking for spurious tones at the sum and difference frequencies of the original tones and/or their harmonics. I think the audibility %-wise should be comparable to regular harmonic distortion depending on the band the extra tones are located, although it could be discriminated differently by the brain.

If this were the case, and the IMD of LS50(meta) is really in the 10%+ reason, that would be badly noticeable in the 1-2 KHz region...

 

[pma]

EQ does not 'take care' of room modes. EQ simply tunes down the relevant frequency band at -usually- your listening position. This implies that there are other areas in the room where that band is completely missing.
'Taking care' of a room mode requires hardware. For low frequencies lots of it - or opening the windows.

Exactly. That’s why I stopped using room EQ after some time of playing with it. The result with EQ was rather worse than better to me. I do not sit at one place +/- 20cm.

 

[Spocko]

Exactly. That’s why I stopped using room EQ after some time of playing with it. The result with EQ was rather worse than better to me. I do not sit at one place +/- 20cm.

I believe the common wisdom now is to keep room EQ below 500Hz or schroeder frequency (whichever is lower).

 

[Spocko]

You are enjoying what you have. I am happy for you.

However, you do realise that surround has failed to move out of a niche even though there had been many tries through out the history. All failed in the market. There must be a reason...

Surround is actually seeing massive surge ever since the Dolby Atmos marketing department took over and the pandemic struck last year (perfect storm I'd say). Initially limited to movies, now we're seeing everybody jumping on the 3D sound train. Surround took a while to get going, but now with soundbars all declaring support for Atmos for under $200, this is the gateway drug to aspirational multi-channel systems for $2,000 and higher.

Most recently, the Dolby Atmos mix by Netflix for "Army of the Dead" is impressive and is the sort of content that will only increase consumer excitement for 3D surround.

 

[amper42]

I believe the common wisdom now is to keep room EQ below 500Hz or schroeder frequency (whichever is lower).

That may be common wisdom? But when I use Audyssey to flatten the Revel F328Be bass between 40Hz to 100Hz and flatten the 4K to 12K range with +3dB the sound quality is amazingly crisp and open. And if playing at lower volumes I can boost the bass using DEQ "5" otherwise I leave DEQ off.

With no EQ in Direct mode or just EQ below 500Hz the beautiful crispness of the tweeter is much less prominent.

 

[MerlinGS]

EQ does not 'take care' of room modes. EQ simply tunes down the relevant frequency band at -usually- your listening position. This implies that there are other areas in the room where that band is completely missing.
'Taking care' of a room mode requires hardware. For low frequencies lots of it - or opening the windows.

Have you ever experimented with multiple subs, in multiple locations, properly calibrated? There is a lot of literature on this and addressing room modes and listening windows/positions.

 

[Asinus]

That may be common wisdom? But when I use Audyssey to flatten the Revel F328Be bass between 40Hz to 100Hz and flatten the 4K to 12K range with +3dB the sound quality is amazingly crisp and open. And if playing at lower volumes I can boost the bass using DEQ "5" otherwise I leave DEQ off.

With no EQ in Direct mode or just EQ below 500Hz the beautiful crispness of the tweeter is much less prominent.

What he means is that basically everyone will have to correct low frequencies below 500Hz because of room interactions, regardless of the speaker, either by automatic software or manually using PEQ, or placing two or more subs in strategic positions or all of the above. Even if it sounds good without it it could sound better taming the bass.

Pushing a bit higher the treble suits your case but not everyone will have issues. What is "frowned upon" is try to correct high-Q peaks or dips in the high frequencies based on just a few measurements because those peaks/dips can change a lot moving a few cm but YMMV.

edit: changed low for high-Q, high Q are the narrow ones

 

[Spocko]

What he means is that basically everyone will have to correct low frequencies below 500Hz because of room interactions, regardless of the speaker, either by automatic software or manually using PEQ, or placing two or more subs in strategic positions or all of the above. Even if it sounds good without it it could sound better taming the bass.

Pushing a bit higher the treble suits your case but not everyone will have issues. What is "frowned upon" is try to correct high-Q peaks or dips in the high frequencies based on just a few measurements because those peaks/dips can change a lot moving a few cm but YMMV.

edit: changed low for high-Q, high Q are the narrow ones

Thanks for the clarification - exactly what I meant!

 

[echopraxia]

Isn't that what I said in the rest of the text that you cut off? Of course any speaker can dig deep, headphones go down to 20Hz in your ear canal but obviously have no SPL at any distance beyond that. Like I also said the TS parameters favor larger drivers for a lower Fs, usually higher sensitivity, more power handling, etc. In the case of these speakers and similar ones, they are tuned to provide a lot of low distortion output in the range that mains are usually run, which is with an 80H crossover in place. As many know, Dr. Toole uses the Salon 2 and still crossed them over with a 4th order high pass at 80Hz because he understands that a properly setup subwoofer system is going to allow deeper, smoother bass for the most listening positions, you also have to keep in mind other speakers in a multi channel setup won't have the same bass capabilities as the Salon 2 or other large tower and so a common crossover point needs to be selected.

Actually, my Salon2’s have changed my thinking on subwoofers a lot. When testing 20hz - 100hz REW sweeps at 100db via my Salon2’s full range, I’ve measured less distortion from the Salon2’s 6x 8” drivers than from 2x 18” Rythmik subwoofers. It might have been just because the subwoofers were placed closer to a wall and was causing more door/wall rattling issues, but still the results show that you can get amazing results from many smaller drivers - big single drivers are not necessary.

But more than that, I think multiple small drivers in a tower are actually much better than a single large subwoofer driver! And this matches both theory as I understand it, and my observations so far.

To this day, I still have not achieved a more consistent in-room bass response with two subwoofers than with just my two Salon2’s running full range. The Salon2 towers, whether or not their optimal stereo placement is best for bass, still has achieved in every room so far (4 very different rooms) better sounding bass than any 1-2 subwoofer system I’ve heard — more smoothly integrated, more consistent sound between different listening positions, etc.

I suspect this is precisely because of the large vertical range covered from bottom to top — from the bottom port, to all three of the 8” bass drivers per speaker. For approximately the same displacement as a 12” subwoofer per speaker, you cover (between the port and 8” woofers) a far larger region of space, which I understand should have the effect of helping to physically smooth out abrupt nulls or peaks in the room.

I find that abrupt changes in bass frequency response has an effect far more important than just making it sound good to multiple listeners. I don’t know if it’s because I naturally will rotate or move my head to some degree while listening, or the space between ears, or the tactile sensation differences that would result from head to toes, but I find that more consistent bass response in-room is very noticeable even to a single listener in a single position.

TLDR: I think more small bass drivers are better than fewer large bass drivers, since it’s extremely important for bass sound quality that the bass response be as smooth as possible throughout the room. Of course, multiple big bass drivers is even better still But not everyone could manage the space or aesthetics to fit 4-6 subwoofers in their room. So there is something to be said for towers / line arrays of woofers.

 

[aarons915]

Actually, my Salon2’s have changed my thinking on subwoofers a lot. When testing 20hz - 100hz REW sweeps at 100db via my Salon2’s full range, I’ve measured less distortion from the Salon2’s 6x 8” drivers than from 2x 18” Rythmik subwoofers. It might have been just because the subwoofers were placed closer to a wall and was causing more door/wall rattling issues, but still the results show that you can get amazing results from many smaller drivers - big single drivers are not necessary.

But more than that, I think multiple small drivers in a tower are actually much better than a single large subwoofer driver! And this matches both theory as I understand it, and my observations so far.

To this day, I still have not achieved a more consistent in-room bass response with two subwoofers than with just my two Salon2’s running full range. The Salon2 towers, whether or not their optimal stereo placement is best for bass, still has achieved in every room so far (4 very different rooms) better sounding bass than any 1-2 subwoofer system I’ve heard — more smoothly integrated, more consistent sound between different listening positions, etc.

I suspect this is precisely because of the large vertical range covered from bottom to top — from the bottom port, to all three of the 8” bass drivers per speaker. For approximately the same displacement as a 12” subwoofer per speaker, you cover (between the port and 8” woofers) a far larger region of space, which I understand should have the effect of helping to physically smooth out abrupt nulls or peaks in the room.

I find that abrupt changes in bass frequency response has an effect far more important than just making it sound good to multiple listeners. I don’t know if it’s because I naturally will rotate or move my head to some degree while listening, or the space between ears, or the tactile sensation differences that would result from head to toes, but I find that more consistent bass response in-room is very noticeable even to a single listener in a single position.

TLDR: I think more small bass drivers are better than fewer large bass drivers, since it’s extremely important for bass sound quality that the bass response be as smooth as possible throughout the room. Of course, multiple big bass drivers is even better still But not everyone could manage the space or aesthetics to fit 4-6 subwoofers in their room. So there is something to be said for towers / line arrays of woofers.

Good points, I think the Salon 2 is probably the exception that proves the rule though and if used in a stereo setup, I agree subs aren't necessary. There are definitely benefits of multiple smaller woofers, they split the power among multiple voice coils and should smooth out SBIR cancellations so they should be smoother even in the mid bass. It seems like the Be series is tuned for more output and less extension than the Salon 2 but I haven't seen any in-room measurements comparing the 2. The F228 seems perfect for an 80Hz crossover though since that is when the distortion starts rising.

I wasn't so much trying to argue that large woofers are inherently better than smaller ones but that the vast majority of speakers on the market do need subs to be truly full range. Also, the room has a huge affect on the actual bass response in our room and most of us have subs already so I was saying that worrying about whether a tower digs down to 20Hz doesn't really matter and I don't personally think that should be a design goal considering the tradeoffs. Then we have to think about multi channel setups, large towers may be able to go full range but it would be extremely hard to integrate the center, surrounds and possibly other channels with subs and have the same bass response as your full range towers.

Back to my original comment, I've found every speaker I've heard for the most part has bass response that I expect considering size and number of woofers, cabinet size and port tuning. I think there is still a problem in the way the Klippel is summing the bass or considering the port output because there is just no way 2 or 3 8" woofers is going to rolloff at 100Hz and Amir's in-room measurements confirm that. I know I'm guilty of over-analyzing measurements too but sometimes we need to inject a little common sense when discussing them.

 

[amper42]

I find using the Revel F328Be full range is ideal at reasonable sound levels with soothing vocals, Jazz trio's and acoustic music. However, with Home theatre, I always cross the F328Be at 80Hz and engage dual VTF-3 MK5 HP Subs that can literally shake the room during rocket launches, car crashes, earthquakes and other crazy scenes.

During moderate music sessions I would rather not activate every vibration point in the room. I'm looking for an ultra clean, powerful sound with a smooth, continuous, distortion free texture across the entire sound stage. Most speakers will require a sub all the time, but if you have a gem of a speaker with fantastic bass it's worth exploring how it best shines in your listening room. If you have a setup that allows switching between full range stereo and subs at the push of a button -- so much the better.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

Actually, my Salon2’s have changed my thinking on subwoofers a lot. When testing 20hz - 100hz REW sweeps at 100db via my Salon2’s full range, I’ve measured less distortion from the Salon2’s 6x 8” drivers than from 2x 18” Rythmik subwoofers. It might have been just because the subwoofers were placed closer to a wall and was causing more door/wall rattling issues, but still the results show that you can get amazing results from many smaller drivers - big single drivers are not necessary.

But more than that, I think multiple small drivers in a tower are actually much better than a single large subwoofer driver! And this matches both theory as I understand it, and my observations so far.

To this day, I still have not achieved a more consistent in-room bass response with two subwoofers than with just my two Salon2’s running full range. The Salon2 towers, whether or not their optimal stereo placement is best for bass, still has achieved in every room so far (4 very different rooms) better sounding bass than any 1-2 subwoofer system I’ve heard — more smoothly integrated, more consistent sound between different listening positions, etc.

I suspect this is precisely because of the large vertical range covered from bottom to top — from the bottom port, to all three of the 8” bass drivers per speaker. For approximately the same displacement as a 12” subwoofer per speaker, you cover (between the port and 8” woofers) a far larger region of space, which I understand should have the effect of helping to physically smooth out abrupt nulls or peaks in the room.

I find that abrupt changes in bass frequency response has an effect far more important than just making it sound good to multiple listeners. I don’t know if it’s because I naturally will rotate or move my head to some degree while listening, or the space between ears, or the tactile sensation differences that would result from head to toes, but I find that more consistent bass response in-room is very noticeable even to a single listener in a single position.

TLDR: I think more small bass drivers are better than fewer large bass drivers, since it’s extremely important for bass sound quality that the bass response be as smooth as possible throughout the room. Of course, multiple big bass drivers is even better still But not everyone could manage the space or aesthetics to fit 4-6 subwoofers in their room. So there is something to be said for towers / line arrays of woofers.

Is your seat near the wall? Usually if placement is optimized for mids and highs, there will be some dips in the sub bass.

 

[aarons915]

Also to remind people from the F328 thread, Amir measured his in room response and they had loads of bass and also could get by without subs assuming you are able to EQ out the room modes. The F328 was criticized the same way as the F228.



Then also just before that post someone mentioned a comment from Kevin Voecks regarding measuring deep bass in an anechoic chamber and how it is very hard to get right, especially with multiple woofers and the port contribution. It's a good read and shows that maybe we should have a different approach when measuring bass.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/equipment/revel_ultima_salon2.htm

 

[Sancus]

I think there is still a problem in the way the Klippel is summing the bass or considering the port output because there is just no way 2 or 3 8" woofers is going to rolloff at 100Hz and Amir's in-room measurements confirm that. I know I'm guilty of over-analyzing measurements too but sometimes we need to inject a little common sense when discussing them.

You're going to get at least +12dB in bass due to the difference between free space and quarter space loading in most cases anyhow, so I'm not sure why people worry about bass response. By the time you're done with boundary and room modes, the in-room response no longer has any resemblance to the anechoic response and you need to EQ it anyway.

IMO the only thing that matters below 100hz is where the sharpest slope fall-off starts(eg: extension) and that's pretty much it. That and maximum output, but maximum output isn't tested here.

 

[Deleted member 30699]

Have you ever experimented with multiple subs, in multiple locations, properly calibrated? There is a lot of literature on this and addressing room modes and listening windows/positions.

Actually no unless you consider full range towers a sub-equivalent. I spend a lot of time tuning tower positioning largely because of bass.

I try to avoid subs altogether. I don't exclude that multiple subs can help addressing room modes but the fundamental problem, i.e. 'undamped resonances' largely remains. Just my 2c.

 

[AudioGod66]

Heh... I wouldn't go that far.

FWIW, this is the BLUF of my JBL/Revel testing:
Revel F226Be: Man, these are incredible!
JBL HDI-3800: Yuck.
JBL HDI-4500: Dammit, why?!
JBL LSR305P: Seriously, who the f*ck is in charge of your QC?!
JBL 708P: Now, this is awesome!



And all my reviews stated as much. And the first 3 were loaned to me by JBL directly. They just said "thanks". I do wish I could have been there when they saw my review for the HDI speakers, though. I'd be curious to know what they thought of my criticisms. I was a bit disappointed by those speakers and my reviews showed it.

You certainly saved me some dollars on the HDI 3800 -thank God buying sight unseen

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

buying sight unseen

There's your problem

 

[AudioGod66]

There's your problem

No option where I am -unfortunately

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Why don't people listen to speakers before they buy? It amazes me to pay 10 000 USD and not even listen at home before purchasing.!!

Perhaps he can afford to pay for them for a home audition, and doesn't feel right simply borrowing them from Amazon like the rest of us.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Other than the falling bass response, this looks absolutely fantastic(golfing panther imo).

What's the reason for the falling off bass response? I used to think it was done to counteract room gain, but after reading @René - Acculution.com 's thread about room gain, I no longer believe this is the case. Is this just a limitation of passive design?

Low distortion.