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Revel F228Be Review (Speaker)

Sancus

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I think you will find that your definition of an effect and the dictionary one that I use is different. Also, your view makes a stereo recording made by a Blumlein microphone pair to be treated as an effect :)

It is an effect. What dictionary are you reading, anyway? It's all just artificially trying to create a representation of the real sound. Of course, so is multi-channel. But you cannot encode much real spatial information in stereo, as it's primarily a psychological trick. Microphones aren't tricked by stereo, there is no real spatial information there. More spatial information is better -- the best recordings of any performance in an acoustic space are Atmos or Auro3D that have dozens or even hundreds of sound source objects.
 

sarumbear

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Isn't that what I said in the rest of the text that you cut off? Of course any speaker can dig deep, headphones go down to 20Hz in your ear canal but obviously have no SPL at any distance beyond that. Like I also said the TS parameters favor larger drivers for a lower Fs, usually higher sensitivity, more power handling, etc. In the case of these speakers and similar ones, they are tuned to provide a lot of low distortion output in the range that mains are usually run, which is with an 80H crossover in place. As many know, Dr. Toole uses the Salon 2 and still crossed them over with a 4th order high pass at 80Hz because he understands that a properly setup subwoofer system is going to allow deeper, smoother bass for the most listening positions, you also have to keep in mind other speakers in a multi channel setup won't have the same bass capabilities as the Salon 2 or other large tower and so a common crossover point needs to be selected.

Many amateur speaker designers like to come and challenge designs on here but I have yet to see someone send in a speaker that competes with a speaker from one of the top manufacturers such as Revel, KEF, Genelec or Neumann...
The reason I cut is to answer your declaration independent of the other things you say which are not related. I left your post above as is but highlighted the section which is what you are confused with and which is what I am commenting to.

The favour you see is nothing to do with physics. They are like that because that is what the DIY or small speaker manufacturers that buy-in drive units want. If you are a manufacturer that build your own drive units like the examples you gave above you have total freedom on what you can get.
 

Balle Clorin

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I am fairly new here and am following especially the passive speaker reviews with attention. I have the highest respect for @amirm and the other objectivist's work being done here.

However, I have difficulties making sense of the listening tests and how endorsements are given.

From the SpeakerTestData one can show a statistically relevant bias in endorsements towards Revel (and JBL) speakers.
Similarly scoring KEF and ELAC speakers get (far) less endorsements even if they achieve a similar score at a far better price to performance ratio.

From what I have seen so far, it would seem that endorsements are given more on how close a speaker gets subjectively to the Revel Saloon 2 sound rather than the objective measurements.

Please note this is not intended as a critique - I'm probably wrong. Can you please help clarify?
Yes, On objective terms the KEFs are clearly superior to the Revels in every measurable way. Even at half the price . I have not compared KEF with my Revel F36 at home but hope to do so, even if my amp is a bit low in Watt for the KEF. The room and the home sound my have an influence . I demoed KEF R7 in two shops , one sounded flat and booring and the other fantastic . The room has a major impact and may be a factor…
 

sarumbear

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It is an effect. What dictionary are you reading, anyway? It's all just artificially trying to create a representation of the real sound. Of course, so is multi-channel. But you cannot encode much real spatial information in stereo, as it's primarily a psychological trick. Microphones aren't tricked by stereo, there is no real spatial information there. More spatial information is better -- the best recordings of any performance in an acoustic space are Atmos or Auro3D that have dozens or even hundreds of sound source objects.
You are enjoying what you have. I am happy for you.

However, you do realise that surround has failed to move out of a niche even though there had been many tries through out the history. All failed in the market. There must be a reason...
 

Sancus

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However, yo do realise that surround has failed to move out of a niche even though there had been many tries through out the history. All failed in the market. There must be a reason...

Sure. People always devolve to this argument. It's so predictable it's kind of sad. You're on an audiophile forum, talking about stereo HiFi speakers. I can't think of anything in audio less popular than that. Multi-channel home theatre is much more popular. Headphones and mono smart speakers even moreso.

The real question is -- where are headphones going to go? Convincing multi-channel can now be heard on headphones with head tracking, now that we have powerful computers and sensors that fit on a thumbnail. Apple is doing it for a mass market. So there is potential for it to become the default headphone listening experience, which would be a game changer for content production. Will it get there? I don't know, but I sure do know that the traditional stereo speaker experience is the past, not the present, and definitely not the future.
 

sarumbear

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Sure. People always devolve to this argument. It's so predictable it's kind of sad.
That is your view and I respect that. However "sad" it may be, there is no argument that surround audio has failed in the market.[/QUOTE]

You're on an audiophile forum, talking about stereo HiFi speakers. I can't think of anything in audio less popular than that. Multi-channel home theatre is much more popular. Headphones and mono smart speakers even moreso.
If we define popular on a forum by the number of posts and threads your argument fails at least on ASR.
 
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Sancus

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If we define popular on a forum by the number of posts and threads your argument fails at least on ASR.

I think this has gone way way too off-topic and I don't see anything productive coming out of this so I'm calling it here.
 

richard12511

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You are enjoying what you have. I am happy for you.

However, you do realise that surround has failed to move out of a niche even though there had been many tries through out the history. All failed in the market. There must be a reason...

Surround has somewhat succeeded in home theater, but you're right that it has failed for music listening. I honestly don't think it will ever succeed, as it's just too impractical. Most people don't want 11 speakers all around the couch, on the roof in the living room, and never will. It doesn't matter that it sounds better, the lack of practicality will keep it from ever succeeding(imo).

Fortunately I find that the Auro3D upmixer does a great job of taking 2.1 content and mapping it to 9.1. Does it sound as good as true multichannel? No, not quite, but it does sound better than the same content played natively in 2.1, so for me that's ok. It's not hugely better than 2.1, though, and I think the most will probably find it too small of an upgrade to justify having speakers laying/hanging around everywhere.
 

Senior NEET Engineer

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Yes, the smoothness of the off-axis is what we know matters for preference, but it's not the only thing. Smooth directivity, which I of course think is always good to have, is generally used in the sense of the reflected sounds being similar to the direct sound. I'm just saying in addition to the 'shape' of the off-axis sound, overall SPL matters too.

Anyway, most of my 'education comes from Toole's book, but I've read most of the papers being cited. I think it's not secret that Toole is generally in favor of wider directivty/louder sidewall reflections.

Going to the research though, here's Toole in his book (7.4.2) talking about Toole (1985), a double-blind test that was specifically about directivity: "In these tests a loudspeaker with narrower dispersion, but with more uniform output off-axis, was given lower ratings than two loudspeakers with wider dispersion, but uneven output off-axis, suggesting that some amount of laterally reflected energy is desirable, even if it is spectrally distorted."

It's an old study with old speakers -- the Quad speaker here was definitely narrower than most of what we might consider 'narrower' directivity on this forum -- but still one of the best we have on this specific matter.

Relevant to @richard12511's question about how much width is optimal, a pair of studies by Klippel in 1990 found that feelings of 'naturalness' and 'pleasantness' were 50% and 70% related to spatial qualities, respectively. This study is in german so I haven't read it myself but Toole says about it(7.4.5):

"Klippel chose as his objective measure of “feeling of space” (R) the difference between the sound levels of the multidirectional reflected sounds and the direct sound at the listening location....
[snip]
...The optimum difference between the direct and reflected sound fields is about 3 dB for speech, 4 dB for a mixed program and 5 dB for music. There is no frequency dependence considered in these numbers, and we know that most loudspeakers do not exhibit constant directional behavior at all frequencies.


A good loudspeaker for this purpose would therefore be one that has two qualities: wide dispersion, thereby promoting some amount of reflected sound, and a relatively constant directivity index, so that the direct sound and reflected sounds have similar spectra."

Here's the accompanying graph:
View attachment 132088
So although these studies didn't test for the spectral quality of the reflections (the 'prettiness' of the off-axis), they do imply that all else being equal SPL alone is enough to be a contributing factor to the perceived naturalness and pleasantness of a speaker.

Toole 2006 is a great paper, a review a bazillion different studies on reflections that talks about many of the most interesting revelations in Toole's book in a slightly more analytical way. One takeaway from this study is that early reflections in a typical room happen around the zone where 'image spreading' is found, which is generally perceived as a positive effect.

Some assessment of the effects of directivity can further be inferred by studies on sidewall reflections vs absoprtion/diffusion, since it's essentially much the same thing to the listener. There have been a few studies showing reflected sounds are preferred to absorption for mastering and recreational listening.

We also know from Shirley et al 2007 stereo listening degrades speech intelligibility (although admittedly this is not the same as clarity) due to interaural crosstalk cancellation and wide directivity/louder sidewall reflections help combat this. And then I believe Toole said he thought the Salon2 beat the M2 because of the wider directivity.

It's also worth noting that the Olive preference study did not look at horizontal directivity width, it just looked at the overall DI curves, which are unreliable at describing horizontal directivity.

One could also consider the existence of the revels themselves, which consistently demonstrate wider directivity than most other speakers with prominent waveguides, with the Salon2 being particularly wide up to about 10kHz

These are just the things I could think of off the top of my head. So I don't think it's not entirely unreasonable to believe that wider directivity might be slightly more preferred for the general populace especially considering Toole seems to think along these lines too. No doubt wide and even is better.

Erin asked Floyd Toole about whether there was an "ideal directivity". He didn't have an answer. At one point, the highest rated speaker in their testing was close to omni directional. That is actually wide. Most Revels have typical horizontal dispersion width when compared to other hi-fi speakers.
 
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He puts a disclaimer right at the top about the conflict. The ethical bar around speaker review sites is not the same as a scientific study. Most of them are much more dependent on manufacturers and advertisers. So they have conflicts on practically every review they write.

I agree there is potential for bias with JBL/Revel reviews, but imo it's a minor matter. You can just not read those reviews and read Erin's instead, but they are also quite positive about JBL and Revels. Which tends to indicate that there's no big problem here.

It is a two edged sword: a potential for bias (not saying that there is) limits who will participate. After the R3 and LS50 reviews, I doubt KEF will send a tonload of speakers anytime soon.

Also, I would generally agree that ethical standards of internet reviews and science are not the same. Unless of course you call a site audio-science-review and focus on objectivity ;)
 
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It happens with any speaker that produces real bass, just as Amir mentioned in his review they excite room modes and will sound boomy if not taken care of through EQ.

EQ does not 'take care' of room modes. EQ simply tunes down the relevant frequency band at -usually- your listening position. This implies that there are other areas in the room where that band is completely missing.
'Taking care' of a room mode requires hardware. For low frequencies lots of it - or opening the windows.
 

Sancus

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After the R3

The R3 listening test turned out positive, though I still wonder why @amirm does not correct the front page of it. I do think it is misleading to leave the negative listening test in when it was primarily caused by an uncorrected room mode, not the speaker. This also highlights why I think listening tests without EQ are fundamentally questionable as well.

Still though, the R3 is a good example -- despite the poor subjective review, most people on the forum still consider it to be a great speaker. Because they read the measurements and focus on them ;)Erin's review was very positive as well.

I doubt KEF will send a tonload of speakers anytime soon.

E: I should additionally point out that very few reviews have ever involved manufacturer participation, it's users sending the speakers in. That's why ASR is great. Any dependence on manufacturers is not great. The Revel/JBL reviews don't involve the manufacturer, either.

Most people don't want 11 speakers all around the couch, on the roof in the living room, and never will. It doesn't matter that it sounds better, the lack of practicality will keep it from ever succeeding(imo).

That's why I'm excited about the headphone-head-tracking approach. If people like that, it frees them from the practical considerations. It doesn't even need to be AS good -- just better than stereo, which is a low bar, and it's a win. Because the content produced for it(regular 5.1/7.1 or Atmos, typically) is full multi-channel content, and so is playable on any normal surround system as well.
 
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aarons915

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EQ does not 'take care' of room modes. EQ simply tunes down the relevant frequency band at -usually- your listening position. This implies that there are other areas in the room where that band is completely missing.
'Taking care' of a room mode requires hardware. For low frequencies lots of it - or opening the windows.

Obviously, usually one listens in a "position", most of us aren't worried if the bass isn't perfect in a corner that we never occupy but we'd like our main listening position to have a neutral bass response.
 
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amirm

amirm

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(Hopefully constructive) critique: I don't understand why @amirm gives a subjective score to speakers where he has a conflict of interest.
Scientifically, even the (objective) measurements would be inadmissible. However, giving a subjective score in such cases is a red flag.
It is trivial to link this to other motives - this site deserves a better reputation than many other review (sales) channels.
I have no real conflict of interest. I have given severely bad rating to some Harman products for example. The company doesn't loan me a pencil for reviews. Every speaker including this one had to be purchased for testing (by me or other members).

I put the strong notice of conflict there out of abundance of transparency. Don't read more into it than what it is. I don't get a commission if you go and buy a Revel speaker.

Penalizing the brand that practices the very standards we use for speaker evaluation seems wrong to me.

Ultimately you are a big boy and can see if the evaluation is done based on a conflict or reality.
 

richard12511

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It is a two edged sword: a potential for bias (not saying that there is) limits who will participate. After the R3 and LS50 reviews, I doubt KEF will send a tonload of speakers anytime soon.

The R3 only reviewed worse than the objective data suggested it should because of a room problem that Amir had yet to iron out. It wasn't because of the sound of the speaker itself. I really wish @amirm would update that review with the updated score and impressions (think it's buried deep in the Revel F35 thread), as you're not the first person to be duped by that. So yeah, no disagreement between objective and subjective in that review.

The LS50 subjective impressions actually agree quite well with the objective data imo, especially after you filter it through what we've learned to be Amir's subjective preferences.

1: It doesn't measure perfect(like the R3 does), with some pretty substantial peaking resonances in some fairly critical ranges.

2: It's a tiny speaker being judged on it's ability to deliver a full range performance. This is how Amir enjoys music, so it makes sense for him to review speakers in this way. Even if he was a subwoofer user, I still think it makes sense to review speakers full range for the sake of not introducing another variable(subwoofer integration) that would change from speaker to speaker.

Note the actual negative comments of the review

"There was no bass to speak of. Turning up the volume resulted in distortion as I could visibly see the little woofer trying to keep up. Definitely not a good choice for a large space."

Now look at the measurements themselves. We see that the response starts falling off below 180Hz, which is quite high, even for someone who is using subs. I'd say that "There was no bass to speak" just about nails it. Do you disagree? Now, if you're someone who would be using these on top of subwoofers crossed really high, then this flaw applies way less to your situation. This is where and why I say it's important to filter his comments through your own preferences/use case and adjust the panther rating accordingly. You can even explain your use case to him and ask him what he would have rated it in that case. I did this for the 8350b, which got a 4/5. I asked Amir what he would have rated it for my use case(as a surround and crossed to multiple subs at 100Hz), and said 5/5. I bought that speaker based on that review, in spite of the subjective flaws, because they didn't necessarily apply to me.

3: It's a point source design. This is arguably the best thing about this speaker to many(myself included), but it's a negative for Amir, based on his preferences. We know that he likes a taller image(see Triangle Ezpirit or Genelec 8351b reviews), which is the opposite of what a point source speaker is trying to achieve. If you like a smaller image, this doesn't apply to you. Or, if you're like me, it applies only some of the time(I think I prefer a taller/wider image for symphonic music).

Note that Floyd Toole also says he prefers a more diffuse center image(I think he listens to a lot of classical), so I don't think this is some super rare preference.

4: It's a 2 way coaxial. Unlike 3 way coaxial designs, 2 ways actually do have a real negative that doesn't show up in the measurements Amir does, and that's intermodulation distortion. The woofer, which acts as the tweeter waveguide, is moving in and out and changing the radiation pattern of the tweeter. This is sub-optimal. You don't want the radiation pattern to be changing based on volume. Given the use case(full range and loud), this almost certainly hurt this speaker in the subjective listen. It's not something that shows up in the measurements, but it is based on objective principles.


You also seem to be somewhat convinced that these subjective impressions are a result of dealer's bias. How do you know it's not simply a matter of preference? There are things that show in measurements that Revel does differently than KEF/Genelec/Neumann, namely wider horizontal dispersion. Maybe he's willing to sacrifice a bit of tonal perfection and directivity smoothness to gain a bit more dispersion width? Dispersion width preference is one of those individual preference things, though there is evidence to suggest that wider is preferred more often. KEF/Genelec are also targeting a goal (tighter image) that Amir dislikes.

I think it's far more likely these subjective impressions are the result of individual preference, not bias. What's the difference? Bias doesn't hold up under blind conditions. Preference does.
 
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hardisj

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read Erin's instead, but they are also quite positive about JBL and Revels.

Heh... I wouldn't go that far.

FWIW, this is the BLUF of my JBL/Revel testing:
Revel F226Be: Man, these are incredible!
JBL HDI-3800: Yuck.
JBL HDI-4500: Dammit, why?!
JBL LSR305P: Seriously, who the f*ck is in charge of your QC?!
JBL 708P: Now, this is awesome!

:D

And all my reviews stated as much. And the first 3 were loaned to me by JBL directly. They just said "thanks". I do wish I could have been there when they saw my review for the HDI speakers, though. I'd be curious to know what they thought of my criticisms. I was a bit disappointed by those speakers and my reviews showed it.
 
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jtwrace

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Heh... I wouldn't go that far.

FWIW, this is the BLUF of my JBL/Revel testing:
Revel F226Be: Man, these are incredible!
JBL HDI-3800: Yuck.
JBL HDI-4500: Dammit, why?!
JBL LSR305P: Seriously, who the f*ck is in charge of your QC?!
JBL 708P: Now, this is awesome!

:D
You're almost there to the pinnacle. :p

Although, I did own a pair of the 708P's and they were stunning even next to the M2's.
 

richard12511

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Heh... I wouldn't go that far.

FWIW, this is the BLUF of my JBL/Revel testing:
Revel F226Be: Man, these are incredible!
JBL HDI-3800: Yuck.
JBL HDI-4500: Dammit, why?!
JBL LSR305P: Seriously, who the f*ck is in charge of your QC?!
JBL 708P: Now, this is awesome!

:D

JBL HDI-3800 was pretty good, just not as good as the F226Be(for music).
 
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