Anyone find it far more rewarding listening to real physical CDs on a CD player, rather than using FLACs? And why do you find this?

[Ron Party]

Listening to playlists is fine.

But we should also remember the composers put the pieces and movements together in a certain order expecting that listeners would listen in that order. So when listening to respect a composer's particular intention, I prefer to listen to the music in the order that they intended - another point in favour of the physical CD/vinyl.

That part of your post which I emphasized in bold is, IMO, a strong argument against greatest hits albums. Generally I like to listen to entire albums, even where there may be only one or just a few really good tracks, because it gives me a better feel for where the artist was at that time in the artist's career. (Yeah, sometimes greatest hits albums have their place too.)

But, I also like to have choices. If I don't want to experience the entire album, e.g., I do only wish to listen to one track, or maybe I set out to listen to the entire album but mid-album my mood changed, server playback makes it easier to exercise my choice.

As an aside, if we are to focus on the artist's intention, could it not be argued that vinyl disrupts that intention due to the pause necessarily involved in having to get up to flip sides? Stated another way, why is it that the artist's intention is that an album be experienced in two parts?

 

[digicidal]

I still have several physical media players about... but I don't find it rewarding to use them at all after finally getting around to doing a blind test between files to a DAC and the CD from the player. At the same time that I maintain both a physical library and a ripped one (with offsite backup) - there is only one time when I ever listen to the CD itself anymore, and that is the first time. Often when I acquire a new CD I will listen directly when I get it home (and I do feel some of that nostalgia from my college days). After that it's got to be ripped for me to listen to it in my car, at my desk, etc. - which is where I do most of my listening anyway.

Not prepared to completely give up physical media however... I do still like to actually own something I pay for - I guess that's considered age-related dementia at this point. As far as the actual listening is concerned however, I'm a bits-is-bits guy all the way.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

I have to say that, for me personally, there is something mildly off-putting about it, almost hard to put my finger on. There are folks who have astoundingly huge music libraries who have offered them to me (to copy) and I ended up saying no.

Surely, one of the addictive pleasures of music, is building the collection yourself (not just receiving someone else's collection). Just as the pleasure of travel, is usually the journey - not just arriving at the destination.

Although mp3s were already beginning to take off in my youth, I'm old enough to remember spending teenage hours exploring the classical and jazz sections in Tower Records in Piccadilly Circus or the Virgin Megastore in Oxford Street, and how you could lose yourself just looking at the covers of the albums and imagining the music inside.

An afternoon in such a shop, could feel like you were in a cathedral, or pilgrimage, for music. .

The way we used to pursue CDs back then (up to 15 years ago), created a context that encouraged you to focus your attention and "mentally tag" the different pieces.

When I look at my CD collection now, I can still see the CDs I bought during teenage holidays in Paris, Los Angeles and Tokyo, and I can remember the childhood afternoon I spent in the Virgin Megastore in Paris, and in Amoeba in Sunset Boulevard.

It's interesting to think that there is a generation of young people now (those younger than 25, certainly) - who have mostly not pursued music in this physically objectified form.

 

[MattHooper]

That part of your post which I emphasized in bold is, IMO, a strong argument against greatest hits albums. Generally I like to listen to entire albums, even where there may be only one or just a few really good tracks, because it gives me a better feel for where the artist was at that time in the artist's career. (Yeah, sometimes greatest hits albums have their place too.)

Also, as many of us know from growing up listening to LPs, playing a whole album often leads to one's taste evolving. It was typical for me that upon playing a new album from a favorite group, I'd really latch on to certain tracks as my favorite, but over time I'd grow appreciation for the other tracks and often enough those would become my favorite. That's the kind of growing appreciation you can miss if you are just building playlists or
easily able to flick by any track you don't quickly like.

I've found that to be the case since I started playing more vinyl again: tons of songs have grown on me and become favorite tracks that I'd never have selected or grown to love in my digital set up.

But, I also like to have choices. If I don't want to experience the entire album, e.g., I do only wish to listen to one track, or maybe I set out to listen to the entire album but mid-album my mood changed, server playback makes it easier to exercise my choice.

Agreed! That's why I also appreciate my digital source. (I actually love streaming internet music stations).

As an aside, if we are to focus on the artist's intention, could it not be argued that vinyl disrupts that intention due to the pause necessarily involved in having to get up to flip sides? Stated another way, why is it that the artist's intention is that an album be experienced in two parts?

I think when LPs were the main music carrier, the two-sides thing was just built in to the reasoning for an artist, so they really did make deliberate choices based on "this we'll put on side A, this will be side B." Rush, for instance, often put their side-long prog pieces on the first side and then put their shorter pieces on side B.

If an artist made an album in the digital age and THEN it was transferred to LP, it's possible it would interrupt the flow of their original intent.
On the "flip-side" of that is that quite a few artists these days, with the vinyl revival, were deliberately planning on vinyl releases, and so gave thought to presentation on that format.

 

[MattHooper]

Surely, one of the addictive pleasures of music, is building the collection yourself (not just receiving someone else's collection).

Yeah.

As a matter of fact, I inhereted my brother-in-law's record collection - boxes of them. The thing is, our taste didn't overlap too much (we both like prog, but he was older and had older prog records I'm not fond of). So they aren't incorporated in to my collection, I mostly listen to my chosen records, and his take up space in my basement. Although not physical space, I'd have the same feeling of being given someone else's massive hard drives of music "just to have more music available" but it ends up sitting in the "dusty corners of the hard drive" unused.

The way we used to buy CDs back then (up to 15 years ago), created a context that encouraged you to focus your attention and "mentally tag" the different pieces.

It's interesting to think that there is generation of young people now - who mostly have never pursued music in this form.

Amen.

But that's what is fun about the recent revival - large numbers of young people have now disovered that pleasure. At least before the pandemic hit, I could throw a rock in almost any direction and hit another new record store popping up in my city, and they were always inhabited by young and old.

 

[LDKTA]

Zero. Technology allowed us to give up CDs and I'm forever grateful to be able to do so. Convenience matters (and obviously quality isn't any lower).

 

[BobbyTimmons]

In the 19th century, people used to prepare for an hour and dress in their finest clothing, before going to the concerts in which the works we listen to today were premiered (and perhaps they would also have to travel to the city to hear it). In 2020, opening a box and inserting small plastic discs into a CD player, might be considered inconvenient and antiquated. I'm not criticizing this view - but it's interesting how quickly our concepts of convenience change.

 

[Robin L]

No. I'm not using FLAC, I've got Apple lossless. My DAPs seem to have more low-level sonic info. I'm convinced that CDs have additional power draws that modulate the bit-stream that the file on Micro-SD does not.

 

[MattHooper]

In the 19th century, people used to prepare for an hour and dress in their finest clothing, before going to the concerts in which the works we listen to today were premiered (and perhaps they would also have to travel to the city to hear it). In 2020, opening a box and inserting small plastic discs into a CD player, might be considered inconvenient and antiquated. I'm not criticizing this view - but it's interesting how quickly our concepts of convenience change.

Yes. And even sticking to contemporary examples, it's so personality-dependent.

I have a friend who, if I say "Let's go out to a nice steakhouse" he'd think I'm off my rocker. He's one of those meat-cookin'-and-proud-of-it BBQ guys so he'd say "Why would I ever go out to a restaurant when I can cook steak just as good or better at home? I don't have to be around all those other people in the restaurant either." Which, given his goals, makes perfect sense. Whereas for me I'm not a home-body, and I just love getting out of the house, having an experience of going somewhere, to a nice restaurant, nice service, the hub-bub of the crowd. It's all part of the experience that elevates my meal, for me.

There's a similar divide when it comes to physical media, those who say "why would I ever bother with all that physical media stuff when I can bypass it and access my music instantly? It's all about the music!" Whereas those who like a certain physical media find what is an uncessary "bother" to the other person is part of the attraction, and elevates the experience.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Yes. And even sticking to contemporary examples, it's so personality-dependent.

I have a friend who, if I say "Let's go out to a nice steakhouse" he'd think I'm off my rocker. He's one of those meat-cookin'-and-proud-of-it BBQ guys so he'd say "Why would I ever go out to a restaurant when I can cook steak just as good or better at home? I don't have to be around all those other people in the restaurant either." Which, given his goals, makes perfect sense. Whereas for me I'm not a home-body, and I just love getting out of the house, having an experience of going somewhere, to a nice restaurant, nice service, the hub-bub of the crowd. It's all part of the experience that elevates my meal, for me.

There's a similar divide when it comes to physical media, those who say "why would I ever bother with all that physical media stuff when I can bypass it and access my music instantly? It's all about the music!" Whereas those who like a certain physical media find what is an uncessary "bother" to the other person is part of the attraction, and elevates the experience.

Although in the context of the CD vs FLAC debate, we are still talking within a realm of extreme convenience vs extreme convenience. The time difference with loading CD, vs loading FLAC file, might be around 30 seconds (to load the CD), although if you have a large collection perhaps it will take a while to locate it on your shelf.

When pieces were premiered in the 19th century, the city used to anticipate the performances for weeks ahead. To hear a symphony, for example, would be a significant event for a city. If you didn't live in a city which had a lot of musical amenities, then you would have to travel to the city to know what such music even sounds like. Composers often only first heard each other's music by buying the sheet music, rather than being able to hear how the music sounded in performance.

 

[maverickronin]

In the 19th century, people used to prepare for an hour and dress in their finest clothing, before going to the concerts in which the works we listen to today were premiered (and perhaps they would also have to travel to the city to hear it). In 2020, opening a box and inserting small plastic discs into a CD player, might be considered inconvenient and antiquated. I'm not criticizing this view - but it's interesting how quickly our concepts of convenience change.

It's mostly relative. There's a lot less reason to complain when there's no other alternative.

 

[Ron Party]

Also, as many of us know from growing up listening to LPs, playing a whole album often leads to one's taste evolving. It was typical for me that upon playing a new album from a favorite group, I'd really latch on to certain tracks as my favorite, but over time I'd grow appreciation for the other tracks and often enough those would become my favorite. That's the kind of growing appreciation you can miss if you are just building playlists or easily able to flick by any track you don't quickly like.

That's a great point and I have experienced this many, many times. I have over 20K albums on my server. I have never created a playlist. I don't even know how to create one.

 

[Snarfie]

That's a great point and I have experienced this many, many times. I have over 20K albums on my server. I have never created a playlist. I don't even know how to create one.

I use Foobar2000 one of the few mediaplayers that let you use your hdd structure to use as a playlist named "by folder structure". But it sort you music also on artist, album, year etc. if taged correctly. Quite a lot of my music is Contemporary jazz funk etc. quite difficult to learn by memory al these new band names like Funky Knuckles, Ghost Poet, Max Graef etc. etc.. So i created a directory "new contemporary/fusion funk jazz" i put in their the new music very easy to find back if my memory lacks remembering.

 

[Victor Martell]

Replying without reading the whole thread - however, wanted to get my $0.02 pesos before delving into the discussion

I certainly agree with @BobbyTimmons - reason I have remained a fan of physical media and will remain so as long as it does not disappear and I am still able to play it.

Especially for classical music indeed. While in CM (classical music - abbreviation I will use from now on) the covers might not be as arresting as some of the prog rock covers (though some are!) - I love the liner notes.

It is also true that IMHO physical media encourages the of focus that @BobbyTimmons refers to. Again, haven't read the thread, but I predict there will be a few arguments

1.- Some people will explain AGAIN the benefits and convenience of digital files and of COURSE also the economic advantage of streaming. Believe me THEY ARE SELF EVIDENT! Really, please, no need to explain again. I assume that those who have switched love that convenience... no need to post "I switched and never looked back" (good for you!)... that is evident too!

2.- Some people will explain that technically there is no difference between CD and the digital file of the same rate and that higher rates are available thru files and streaming (assuming you can hear the difference - debatable of course ! Different discussion! ). We also know that, otherwise we would not be in this forum!

3.- Some people will indicate they have the discipline, concentration and attention to music/albums/works as a whole, using files and/or streaming... We are not saying is impossible nor that physical media is required... it is just that is better encouraged by physical media

4.- Last, and I hope that I see none of these, I am afraid some people will refer to the love of music - meaning, they will say "I love music, I don't need all the non-sense of packaging etc - you, vic, are a a collector, not a music lover". I really hope none of that pops up. This is the "no true scotsman" fallacy to put it simply.

How did I get here? I must confess - started out as a file person, well - due to family obligations and other circumstances I ended up with no system! For a long time, the only thing I had for music was an iPod classic and decent earbuds. I did have a significantly big CD collection, as I came of age in the height of the CD era, amassed during that time. Fortunately, did not have to get rid of it. So yes, started ripping. As circumstances changed, I went back to having a system. Because of the iPod past, it was file based. Seemed easier to just continue on that path, right?

Not with CM! A big pet peeve is metadata. Out there on the internet is horrible. From the tendency to organize by artists, bad handling of multi-composer and/or multi-artist and/or multi-work albums, people out there submitting metadata using THEIR OWN conventions (some very dumb, I will say), it is a mess for CM. Spotify is no better, specially with box sets. I do not subscribe to Tidal or Qobuz (which is classical oriented, from what I understand) they might be better. The experience with Spotify was abysmal.

All these meant I spent a long time fixing/updating the metadata to something it would make sense to this CM lover. Very time consuming. I felt I was spending more time ripping and fixing that listening. And with the amount of CDs, it felt like it would take a lifetime.

Listening on Spotify even more frustrating. One specific example, Solti's Ring - every file was named "Solti - Der Ring Des Nibelungen" and that's it! Things might be better now and they fixed that release somewhat after I complained, but that left a sour taste. And it was ONE release. It wasn't like they went back to review all their classical collection.

Decided to get a CD player. Yowsa. It was like a whole world opened. All those thousands of CDs waiting to be ripped suddenly became available. Like getting thousands of new CDs at the same time! And from then on fell in love with physical media again, including a like for vinyl, influenced by some millennial co-workers.

Rather spend the time listening, not ripping and fixing metadata. That in turn lead me to the realization of what @BobbyTimmons describes in this first post. It does help to concentrate and focus on the work at hand. This makes it that much more enjoyable

There a few more issues... Buying files feels like I am buying nothing... Releases disappearing from streaming services... how little artists gets from streaming services - specially for artists in boutique labels; they get more money from a vinyl sale than from thousands upon thousands of streams. Better way to support the artists whose work we profess to love.

Of course, to all of the above there are counterarguments. And YMMV, but this post is getting too long. I would say, though, that I like these kind of threads. They are the right kind of subjective discussions! Now on to read the thread, to see how many of my "predictions" came true!


v

So - some of my predictions re: what kind of posts this thread was gonna get became true. Lots of posts re-stating the convenience of file based and streaming based reproduction. Again, that is self evident, is not like we don't know... unnecessary posts IMHO.

Surprisingly, some others admitted to the problems with file based libraries, namely, and mainly, data loss... Truth to be told, did not even think of that, because, frankly, anything can be lost! Yes, with physical media you are not prone to data loss, but well, you can physically lose those, while your files can be backed up externally; you can insure your physical collection, but not your files, etc... so in my mind, not really a factor. It all evens out on that concern.

Nobody took me to task with the "you don't really love the music" argument, which I have gotten elsewhere, but not here. GOOD!

What I should have predicted are posts with jokes comparing physical media to something both ridiculously antiquated and not really comparable/relevant.

Some interesting posts re: how to best rip and tag classical CDs. Could try those suggestions - I still rip some CDs so I can have something to listen at work... well used to... right now the office is closed... but the whole of my collection? Again, last time I estimated around 8000 CDs plus the box sets, which I did not even count... I just went by volume, using a standard CD jewel case as the unit! Again, it feels like it could take a lifetime... rather be listening.. so of course, as anything is actually a matter of personal preference... for people with smaller collections, well yeah, they might tend to prefer to rip and discard...

Unfortunately not a lot of discussion on how a physical release helps focus the attention on a particular work, specially for CM, I think, still true for other kinds of music too... It could be that people around here are younger. True, I believe that the era of the album (no matter the format) as a unified artistic statement has passed. I heard of artists releasing bunches of songs for the whole purpose of people putting them in playlists, along different stuff from different artists even... a whole different paradigm...

So there might be an age and/or preference divide... as I think that if you believe in the album as a unified artistic statement, you will tend to prefer physical media, classical or not, even.

 

[Sal1950]

No. I'm not using FLAC, I've got Apple lossless. My DAPs seem to have more low-level sonic info. I'm convinced that CDs have additional power draws that modulate the bit-stream that the file on Micro-SD does not.

If your really convinced of that, set up a well documented, bias controlled, DBT listening test and submit your findings. Personally I believe your letting some type bias, control what you think your hearing.

 

[MattHooper]

Victor,

I interpreted your first post as making a case for some of the attractions of physical media. And I've inferred that it is at least true for you, and wondered if others felt that way (which some of us do).

I've been making a similar case for a while here. (And, btw, I'm certainly no subjectivist or relativist in regards to "Truth." I don't think there is any such thing as "my truth" or "your truth" but just "truth." Rather, subjectivity, different values and reactions, are facts, from which rational actions can be derived; e.g. "I like chocolate ice cream and don't like vanilla" is a fact, which makes choosing the chocolate ice cream over the vanilla the rational, reasonable act).

It stems from a more general concern (at least on my part) of trying to understand the motivations and values of other people, before dismissing their actions as irrational. There is a tendency, which I think it would be good to overcome, of thinking so narrowly through our own biases and interests that we can see someone else who doesn't share the same criteria as making silly or irrational decisions. And then, since we aren't really taking their view seriously, and they are doing something we ourselves wouldn't do, we attribute to them shallow or trivial or childish motives.

So for instance you get "Given a digitally streamed music system is so obviously advanced and convenient, the only reasons someone else can really have for choosing LPs or CDs is emotional nostalgia or sheep-like following of revival trends." And this isn't to take seriously the fact other people have different experiences and criteria which means they will have any number of ways in which their choice is completely reasonable. (Some of which you and I and others have stated).

I mean, if I just looked at the behavior of other people only through my own filter of what is reasonable, based on my personal likes and goals, then pretty much everyone else's hobby in the world would be "irrational." Why the hell get dressed up to go sweat under the sun chasing a little white ball around with a stick, when you can stay inside in air conditioned comfort relaxing? Why ever go see a live concert when you can listen at home?
Why wear a nice watch when your phone tells time? If you simply leave out the fact that other people are different than you, have different criteria, likes and dislikes, then you'll never understand the reasons for what they do.

So I do see your post as being in the category of "We can have good reasons for why we X, even where other people may not share those reasons."

Which is better than: "I don't like that, so I won't put any effort in to understanding why anyone else might have good reasons to like it."

 

[Sal1950]

That's a great point and I have experienced this many, many times. I have over 20K albums on my server. I have never created a playlist. I don't even know how to create one.

I guess it depends on what you call a play list. For my personal listening I've never put together what they used to call a "mix" list, consisting of a bunch of individual favorite songs.
I will create an evenings play list consisting of 3 or 4 albums which I play back, one after the other, in their natural order, only vary occasionally skipping a tune that I really don't enjoy at that moment.
This is the golden age for music lovers IMO. In the digital world we have optical media, streaming, download purchasing, and more, all in forms which can provide SOTA sound quality access to just about every musical performance ever recorded . Each has it's strengths and weaknesses, personally I use all of them in the manner I find most appropriate.
I do feel bad for the classical music buffs and their issues with tagging. I listen to the various forms of popular music and only find the need to add a couple of extra tags to be able to quickly locate anything in my library. But on the other hand, consider how far we've come from the days of no computers and hundreds if not thousands of LP's jammed into shelf's. I remember having to stand (or kneel) forever trying to find an LP that I could only file alpabetically by the Groups name and then the Albums name. Today I can jump to just about anything I want only using a search word or two in my media server.

 

[Victor Martell]

Victor,

[snip]
It stems from a more general concern (at least on my part) of trying to understand the motivations and values of other people, before dismissing their actions as irrational. There is a tendency, which I think it would be good to overcome, of thinking so narrowly through our own biases and interests that we can see someone else who doesn't share the same criteria as making silly or irrational decisions. And then, since we aren't really taking their view seriously, and they are doing something we ourselves wouldn't do, we attribute to them shallow or trivial or childish motives.

So for instance you get "Given a digitally streamed music system is so obviously advanced and convenient, the only reasons someone else can really have for choosing LPs or CDs is emotional nostalgia or sheep-like following of revival trends." And this isn't to take seriously the fact other people have different experiences and criteria which means they will have any number of ways in which their choice is completely reasonable. (Some of which you and I and others have stated).

I mean, if I just looked at the behavior of other people only through my own filter of what is reasonable, based on my personal likes and goals, then pretty much everyone else's hobby in the world would be "irrational." Why the hell get dressed up to go sweat under the sun chasing a little white ball around with a stick, when you can stay inside in air conditioned comfort relaxing? Why ever go see a live concert when you can listen at home?
Why wear a nice watch when your phone tells time? If you simply leave out the fact that other people are different than you, have different criteria, likes and dislikes, then you'll never understand the reasons for what they do.

So I do see your post as being in the category of "We can have good reasons for why we X, even where other people may not share those reasons."

Which is better than: "I don't like that, so I won't put any effort in to understanding why anyone else might have good reasons to like it."

I think/hope you are referring to my latest post (apologies if not) - I do appreciate the positive comments.... Indeed, when it comes to the why? of physical media it has been my intention for get those.. err... against it, to put it one way, to not assume that is due to some idea of sonic superiority. I mean, the assumption makes sense in the context of this forum. I see many people from this forum out there in other forums, fighting the good fight for a rational assessment of audio. So that particular bias makes sense.

However, I just want to remind people, that given that WE are HERE, that we do know. No need to explain and over explain the advantages. Again, I say (with a little bit of snark, but hopefully not that much) that they are pretty obvious and it insults me just a little bit every time someone tries to explain them to me. Sometimes we just like what we like!

I have made exactly the same point specially, in some "why vinyl" threads around here. All I want, I bit egotistically, I admit, for fellow forum dwellers to not believe I am deluding myself; it is simply a preference. As I mentioned in other threads, sport/luxury cars are a good analogy. As you mention mechanical watches are too.


BUT

Beyond that, I am also interested in the divide. Because IMHO is all connected. The devaluation of recorded music, file based reproduction, and specially streaming in relation of how one listens and views the work put out by the artists. Sure, it seems to be that the choice of what to pick out from an album was on the artist and most likely the record company - the single. It may seem it is good that now is on us. The question is should we? "Another Brick In The Wall pt 2" is a nice song and it makes sense that it was picked as a single. That said, within the context of the album it takes a different meaning than out of context. See how it was banned in some countries as "political" when in fact it is just, well, it's just another brick in the wall... Not to mention, of course, in CM, re: taking out movements of a work out of context, as discussed elsewhere in the thread...

So it depends on how you see recorded music in relation to the album format. If you see it as a collection of little moments to entertain me, then the album format is a nuisance. That's where the concept of "filler" comes from. Of course, there is also the related concept of "deep tracks". It makes sense that if this is your view, that you will prefer file based and specially streaming playback as it does not force you to get a full album to get that one song you are interested it.

If, however, on the other hand you view the album as a unified artistic statement, you will tend to prefer physical media, as often, the packaging is part of that statement. From the liner notes in CM and Jazz that explain the relationship between the presented works and gives info on them so you place the works in the right context, to obvious things like Sgt. Pepper, DSOTM, The Wall, where the packaging is the first step in that statement.

Of course, there are exceptions. You may prefer streaming and yet listen only to complete albums. Or to tell you the truth, for some albums, no matter how you slice them, you find they are really just a bunch of songs. Sure. All of the above is just a generalization to try to put the whole thing in context. The problem with generalizations is that often, they are not general enough...


v

 

[Robin L]

If your really convinced of that, set up a well documented, bias controlled, DBT listening test and submit your findings. Personally I believe your letting some type bias, control what you think your hearing.

Ihaveneitherthewillnorthemeans. However,I would be interested in the results should someone set up such a DBT.

 

[Apesbrain]

I listen to much more music now with everything on my server and, for me, that's all that counts.