Denon AVRs vs Integrated stereo Amplifiers for 2 channel music

[GXAlan]

Oh I can see the difference in weight, it's the importance that's unclear.

Some products add unnecessary weight like fancy cast iron feet, etc. However, weight also translates into larger transformers for linear power supplies, beefier heatsinks (bent aluminum versus milled) which are all markers for a better setup.

Class D and switching power supplies make the weight difficult to assess 1:1 but thermals still matter for amplifiers of all topologies.

 

[Chrispy]

Some products add unnecessary weight like fancy cast iron feet, etc. However, weight also translates into larger transformers for linear power supplies, beefier heatsinks (bent aluminum versus milled) which are all markers for a better setup.

Class D and switching power supplies make the weight difficult to assess 1:1 but thermals still matter for amplifiers of all topologies.

True, but still depends on particular unit, design, excecution, placement, etc.

 

[antcollinet]

Class D and switching power supplies make the weight difficult to assess 1:1

Exactly. That is the point.

@Golf - when told that only measurements are a reliable predictor of sound quality, suggested weight as a suitable measurement. It is (obviously) not.

It suggests design choices (eg, machined from solid case, linear power supply/big heatsinks etc). However, as long as a design has a stable PSU or whatever topology, and the cooling design is sufficient (no matter how achieved) then weight is irrelevant to sound quality.

Further, it has been pointed out, that some designs include heavy components seemingly just to increase weight to create an "impression" of quality. In today's world it could be argued that linear power supplies and big heatsinks are just that, even ignoring the use of objectively oversized components in some cases.

These points seem to have passed him by.

 

[Golf]

If you consider any given hi-fi audio device as a well-chosen phenomenon that’s part of peoples’ homes (and I believe it is totally justified to do so), then taking into account only its measurement results to rate its value would mean to dramatically underrate the complexity of human perception.

 

[voodooless]

If you consider any given hi-fi audio device as a well-chosen phenomenon that’s part of peoples’ homes (and I believe it is totally justified to do so), then taking into account only its measurement results to rate its value would mean to dramatically underrate the complexity of human perception.

Value != sound quality

 

[Golf]

Value != sound quality

No. Sound quality is only one part of what makes up the value. And not even the most important one, I’d say.

 

[antcollinet]

No. Sound quality is only one part of what makes up the value. And not even the most important one, I’d say.

So, given that statement - who do you think is using only measurements to rate value?

 

[dlaloum]

Oh I can see the difference in weight, it's the importance that's unclear.

It's only important when comparing apples and apples - if both have traditional transformer based power supplies, then weight will give a very very rough indication of current capacity.... High current power supplies are seriously heavy.

SMPS, are a completely different technology, and make the weight comparison meaningless.

 

[Chrispy]

It's only important when comparing apples and apples - if both have traditional transformer based power supplies, then weight will give a very very rough indication of current capacity.... High current power supplies are seriously heavy.

SMPS, are a completely different technology, and make the weight comparison meaningless.

Still, the weight can come from other than the transformer, and IIRC there can be weight differences between relatively similarly capable toroidal vs EI transformers. Then there's chassis and heat sinks, overall bill of materials, etc.

 

[antcollinet]

Still, the weight can come from other than the transformer, and IIRC there can be weight differences between relatively similarly capable toroidal vs EI transformers. Then there's chassis and heat sinks, overall bill of materials, etc.

It is also possible a manufacture fits a much-larger-than-needed transformer - which while capable of delivering more current might:

a) - not be needed and/or:
b) - not be supported by the rest of the amp design.

Just weight for the sake of weight.

 

[voodooless]

Just weight for the sake of weight.

Or put in some massively over-dimensioned heatsinks... Or add a shitload of giant power supply caps... The ways to make something look and feel impressive without adding any additional performance are endless.

 

[dlaloum]

Still, the weight can come from other than the transformer, and IIRC there can be weight differences between relatively similarly capable toroidal vs EI transformers. Then there's chassis and heat sinks, overall bill of materials, etc.

Yes -it is a rough rule of thumb... with limited validity, but still some validity nevertheless

(High current amps, tend to also have larger heatsinks... and a heavier/larger chassis to carry it all....)

It is also possible a manufacture fits a much-larger-than-needed transformer - which while capable of delivering more current might:

a) - not be needed and/or:
b) - not be supported by the rest of the amp design.

Just weight for the sake of weight.

Sure but an oversized transformer, is expensive weight...

 

[dlaloum]

Or put in some massively over-dimensioned heatsinks... Or add a shitload of giant power supply caps... The ways to make something look and feel impressive without adding any additional performance are endless.

And some of those, will provide improved performance under specific "edge" cases - eg: driving a 1.6ohm speaker requiring substantial current... and using the oversized caps for dynamic headroom over short periods of time... the sort of thing amps with "linear" power supplies are often good at - short term peaks providing substantial dynamic capability....

Whereas typical class D designs, are much more efficient, and engineered to their rated spec... with a switching power supply, and an amp designed that way, you get exactly that - your 100W amp will give you 100W and nothing more - no headroom beyond.
Often rated continuous power and peak power are the same (or very close to) for ClassD desings.

Traditional AB designs often publicise their "peak music power" - sometimes this is snake oil - where they advertise the amps ability to put out big W's for a very very brief time... in an attempt to get the customer to think that this is the amps continuous rating....
But the decent (and reputable) ones, rate their amps at continuous ratings, and then may provide information on peak/headroom specs.

Moving back slightly towards the original topic... AVR's intended to drive between 7 and 11 speakers are quite common.... and when driving only 2 speakers (as a stereo amp), they have substantial "reserves" of power, as the power supply is sized to feed all the amps, and if you are using only two - there is plenty in reserve!
This then manifests in AVR's rated at 140W, measuring 160W on the lab bench, when driving stereo only...
But run all 11 channels simultaneously, and the rated power (often measured with only 5 or 7 channels powered) - is not achieved.

So if running Stereo only, a previous generation flagship AVR, will often have much more power & current than one might think!

 

[antcollinet]

Sure but an oversized transformer, is expensive weight.

Over priced boutique gear can carry it.

I've not found an obvious amp example - but here is a DAC. They even boast that it is oversized. A 60W transformer for a device with a 3W headphone amp.

Liberty DAC II - Desktop DAC / Headphone AMP / MQAMytek Audiohttps://mytek.audio › world › shop › lbrt-dac-ii-287

 

[CK.]

I would be interested to know if you have actually tested these hypotheses although they make sense. Only a couple of replies have stated they actually listened to both and noticed no difference.

Also its interesting to note that most avrs are only 8 or 6 ohm rated (two channels driven) while some similarly priced integrated are rated to 4 and even 2 ohms. Why do you think that is?

Reminding you that my speakers impedance goes down to 3.2 ohms

 

[voodooless]

Also its interesting to note that most avrs are only 8 or 6 ohm rated (two channels driven) while some similarly priced integrated are rated to 4 and even 2 ohms. Why do you think that is?

Any decent AVR has no issues with 4R loads nowadays. Amir tests all AVR with 4R loads as well.

Here is the ops amp:

Dynamic power is about 240W which is on par with what we see of the A30 here.

 

[Chrispy]

I would be interested to know if you have actually tested these hypotheses although they make sense. Only a couple of replies have stated they actually listened to both and noticed no difference.

Also its interesting to note that most avrs are only 8 or 6 ohm rated (two channels driven) while some similarly priced integrated are rated to 4 and even 2 ohms. Why do you think that is?

Reminding you that my speakers impedance goes down to 3.2 ohms

What integrated amps are rated to 2 ohm?

 

[CK.]

Any decent AVR has no issues with 4R loads nowadays. Amir tests all AVR with 4R loads as well.

Here is the ops amp:
View attachment 351179

Dynamic power is about 240W which is on par with what we see of the A30 here.

Yeah i remember I saw those measurements before and they are reassuring for sure!

Not sure why they dont rate it at 4ohms.

Apart from this though, do we know how it can handle complex loads and big dips in impedance? And an amplifier capable of doing this will offer an audible improvement worth mentioning?

 

[voodooless]

Not sure why they dont rate it at 4ohms.

Not sure why. They also don't give power at 16 Ohm, but that doesn't mean it won't work. There is even a menu option to set the impedance to 4 Ohm. You should always leave it at 8 Ohm. It's only for thermal management and to get through certification. In normal operation, there should not be any issues.

Apart from this though, do we know how it can handle complex loads and big dips in impedance? And an amplifier capable of doing this will offer an audible improvement worth mentioning?

I don't think we've seen any cube testing for AVRs yet from Amir? Would be nice to see though. I suspect these AVR amps would handle this well enough.

 

[dlaloum]

I would be interested to know if you have actually tested these hypotheses although they make sense. Only a couple of replies have stated they actually listened to both and noticed no difference.

Also its interesting to note that most avrs are only 8 or 6 ohm rated (two channels driven) while some similarly priced integrated are rated to 4 and even 2 ohms. Why do you think that is?

Reminding you that my speakers impedance goes down to 3.2 ohms

Yes - often similar market segment integrated ammps, have the same size power supply as the equivalent segment AVR's - which means the AVR's will typically be current constrained, and unable to handle speakers with difficult (ie: low) impedances... but sometimes, the AVR's can handle such speakers if run in stereo only... ie: depending on the design, the amp circuit might handle it fine, but the PSU can't give it enough current... in that case, running the AVR in stereo results in similar performance to the equivalent integrated.

For most material, surround/height channels use very little power - they really are effects and immersion channels... in the early days of Dolby Surround (circa 1985...) it was considered ample to have 25W for the surround channel...
So the AVR designers often size the AVR PSU for middle of the road mass market speakers, and allocate a small power supply "budget" for the surrounds.

My old Onkyo SR876 or Integra DTR70.4 could handle my speakers just fine - the woofer XO goes down to 3 ohm, and the tweeter goes down to 1.6ohm (and is capacitive, which a lot of amps get unhappy about apparently).

But those generations of onkyo/integra AVR's were considered "beasts"... current equivalents are the RZ70/DTR8.4/lx805 - the more mass market oriented RZ50/DTR5.4/LX505 are the scrawny guy in the cartoon who needs the "Atlas" treatment...

Denon&Marantz flagships have also always had ample power & current in their AVR's - and the 10 to 15 year old models can often be picked up used for very little money .... so there are bargains to be had for those willing to go for a 10+ year old flagship AVR, which could handle difficult speakers in Stereo without any issues.