Or even what weight scale if any? Hard to know without lots of details
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Denon AVRs vs Integrated stereo Amplifiers for 2 channel music
- Thread starter CK.
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- Thread Starter
- #122
As measured using rew pink noise spl meter
- Thread Starter
- #123
C weighting if thats what you meanOr even what weight scale if any? Hard to know without lots of details
- Thread Starter
- #124
Sorry to go a bit off topic but could not find enough information on the following:
phantom center (2-channel music listening) seems to be lower than the tweeter height and towards the lower part of my R3s. The tweeters are ear-height so the vocals are about 15-20cm below ear level. I think this is common (?) and makes vocals to sound a bit less "natural" in terms of positioning/imaging. Heard that using a rake angle (tilt upwards) might improve this. Any ideas thoughts on this?
and one more thing, I have an assymetric room (left wall closer to the left speaker) and noticed the phantom center shifts to the left by say 15cm. So I changed left speaker level -2db and right speaker +2db which has solved the issue. Is that acceptable?
phantom center (2-channel music listening) seems to be lower than the tweeter height and towards the lower part of my R3s. The tweeters are ear-height so the vocals are about 15-20cm below ear level. I think this is common (?) and makes vocals to sound a bit less "natural" in terms of positioning/imaging. Heard that using a rake angle (tilt upwards) might improve this. Any ideas thoughts on this?
and one more thing, I have an assymetric room (left wall closer to the left speaker) and noticed the phantom center shifts to the left by say 15cm. So I changed left speaker level -2db and right speaker +2db which has solved the issue. Is that acceptable?
Look for stuff causing reflections. Due to my small room I have a sub in front of my left speaker (but below all the drivers). Reflections from this cause the sound stage to shift left and down on the left. I can mostly mitigate this by putting a soft cushion on the sub.
And yes - if your speaker level adjustment sounds Ok for you that is the only definition of "acceptable" needed. You could also though - if you wanted to experiment a little, try some soft furnishing of some kind a the first reflection point on the left wall.
killdozzer
Major Contributor
@CK. Oh, and btw, never take advice from people who make this kind of arguments. Nothing against you personally, @Golf but this makes no sense nor does your kg argument. If someone asks for help, try to help them don't obfuscate it even more.Maybe it will help to have a look at the »inner values«. Candidates here may be Denon’s AVR-X3800H and PMA-1700NE. Guess which is which – and which one could possibly be the better 2-channel pal for you ...
View attachment 350376
@CK. A well executed (!) AVR will play just the same as an AMP and will give you some useful features. Serious companies that make AVRs will provide a percentage of guarantee for the power stated. This is very useful because if one source is powering multiple speakers it is a considerably more difficult task, but since you plan to use it for 2ch, you should be fine.
Still, I wouldn't give my trust easily to no-name brands in AVRs. I think it is a sophisticated piece of equipment and should be done with a lot of knowledge and expertise.
- Thread Starter
- #128
Yeah I mean the most obvious thing is the vicinity of the left wall. I do sit with the back wall right behind me but I will soon be installing acoustic panels there to mitigate any reflections. So you are saying that the vocals do sound at ear level height after mitigating reflections?
- Thread Starter
- #129
yeah off-axis results are pretty good. But what do you mean about the eq? above 300Hz I have used the spinorama EQ results to only EQ based on unechoic measurements.
When we say a well executed AVR , I think we hit the nail on the head. There are many average AVRs we can afford and very few well executed ones we can’t.
Its an issue for me as at some point I would have budget of £3000 but struggle to find an avr that well executed . I would need like £7000 for that.
Its an issue for me as at some point I would have budget of £3000 but struggle to find an avr that well executed . I would need like £7000 for that.
killdozzer
Major Contributor
You do seem to be selling a lot of hot water. Which is basically just a step away from hot air.It doesn’t even have to be nonsense. Just needs context.
Even a high end Pioneer Elite might run out of power with as little as 20 watts!
Pioneer VSX-LX505 AVR Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Pioneer VSX-LX505 ELITE 9.2 Channel AV Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and is a refurbished unit. Normal cost is US $1699. As you see, the front panel is the same old interface from decade+ back. The on-screen menus...
There is a superstition in some Asian cultures that it’s bad to drink cold water. You should only drink hot water. This is “nonsense” in the present day, but you can imagine in the era before electricity and the understanding of microbiology and water treatment, it probably was safer to drink water that had been boiled in a pot over a fire as opposed to drinking cold water straight out of a stagnant, cold pond.
It is not hard to imagine that AVRs today are different than AVRs 20 years ago. Except for the AKM fire, we generally see an improvement in performance over time.
killdozzer
Major Contributor
There are so many hobbies... You don't have to pick one you don't understand. Class D weighs much less and outperforms A and AB Class.But remember: Weight seems to be the one measurable value of hi-fi audio gear that most of the »objectivists« in this field don’t feel like taking objectively
killdozzer
Major Contributor
More to the point, even in the same design choice, a 2x60Wpch into 8 should only weigh as much as it does. Anything above that is sheer nonsense. (I know you know that, I'm just pointing out it makes even less sense that one might think at first.) And even heat sinks and the rest makes no difference. Or, to put it more precisely, it's relative. If your small heat sinks do the job and keep the amp cool, making them twice the size and weight will add nothing. You won't be able to get 2x80 with low THD just because it's cooler. All parts are either functional or just there to attract the kind of audiophiles you mentioned earlier.
killdozzer
Major Contributor
If there's one to steer clear of, it's Hegel. They proved to be perfectly willing to put to the market a unit which is poorly designed and they ask a heap of money for it. There is a long thread about that on ASR. (If I remember correctly, it was the 95)
Don't read too much into this "complex difficult loads". It doesn't mean it's too complex or too much for a well designed AVR and 3700 is such an AVR. Using 2ch system with KEF R3 (if I understood you correctly) for 70 - 75 dB SPL, it's calm waters for your 3700. It'll get fat and lazy and it will think it retired early. It's a walk in the park for that AVR.
killdozzer
Major Contributor
This is demonstrably false. AVRs are not under the same regulations for stating power specs as amps. This has been the biggest problem and what eventually gave AVR's power a bad rep. First and foremost, you can hardly find any that state power all channels driven as the main value. Not only that but they play with numbers endlessly to make it LOOK stronger. They pick a 6 ohm spec, they allow for 1%THD, they state the number for 1 channel driven... It's all over the place.
One thing you'll almost never going to get is "all channels driven, 8ohm, less than 0.1% THD, below 20Hz to over 25kHz". Not to even mention then looking for the same set of specs for 4ohms. Products that will state this you can count on one hand. There has been a long lasting struggle to make AVR manufacturers come up with a reliable way of stating power. And they even talk a lot of BS when it comes to separate/discrete channels being powered. You open it up and it's a single power source only with a cap each channel.
And this affects the reserve power the most. It's all nice and well until you push it and then it quickly drops under.
A safer bet is to look for slightly more power in an AVR than you would from an AMP.
- Thread Starter
- #137
Yeah for example older denon avrs had an issue with the speed of sound value in their measurements which resulted in a wrong delay setting
- Thread Starter
- #138
yeah thats true you need to know how to read the specs but its even better when you have actual independent measurements such as from this channel. This was the case with my avr, the denon 3700h.
I was basing my comments on actual benchtests of AVR's and not spec sheets....
Actual FLIR photo's of classD modules, show lots of hot patches.... this may be within the manufacturer spec/rating - but they do bode ill for extended lifetime well beyond the manufacturers warranty....
Traditional heavy heatsink engineered AB types, typically get warm but never get "hot" - looking at my Quad 606....
Now an engineer might look at the 606, and say, he could save 10% of the manufacturing costs by reducing the size of those heatsinks, allowing the components to get hotter, and still keep everything within "spec"... and that would be true - but 45 years after that 606 left the factory, it still runs well, sounds great, and seems to be good for another few decades... a lot of amps that run (ran) "hot" aren't around anymore to compete.
I've had 2 AVR's in a row fail within 5 to 6 years of being purchased, with issues that in both cases were related to heat .... both were "within spec" but designs which ran seriously HOT. - I won't be making that mistake again!.