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Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

NegativeEntropy

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The original source of this study was way back in 1943. When folks were much less sensitive to direct language. Here’s the original curve and description. It can be explained in many ways, but the data is sound either way. That’s why it’s so broadly used in marketing schools to this day.
View attachment 305659
A lot of those cutoff marks between groups are exactly where standard deviation marks would be (34% and 13.5% and nearly perfectly the others). Seems...dubious. I googled enough to know the OG research was about adoption of hybrid seed corn, just saying I bet those dividing lines are eiter arbitrary or would have hilariously large error bars.
 

just1n

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If ART is generating inverted sound waves to “cancel” sounds at the measured listening positions, would that mean that the system would sound “louder” in adjacent spaces or outside the listening environment?
 

ooheadsoo

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Are there any in room recordings with and without art to demonstrate the reduced ringing?
 

Magnus

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It needs to be more capable than the L/R for this to work well, unless all 3 are significantly oversized to begin with. The L/R play far less than the center does.
Playing less should not be confused with playing less often.

While it's true the center channel often handles a huge amount of a given soundtrack, that absolutely does NOT mean that the sounds it is playing are particularly taxing to play in terms of volume and/or dynamic range or frequency bandwidth needed.

In other words, how does some guys talking up a storm in Oppenheimer for half the movie compare to the atom bomb going off in terms of taxing available resources?

What should matter in upper bass terms is whether the speaker is in a good position to support corrections for issues found in the system.

For example, just experimenting with double bass turned on in a given system I was playing with that had three full range mains (L/C/R) and only one sub for one row of seats with the only significant problem Audyssey couldn't solve being a 12+dB valley mode at the MLP at 55Hz and running REW tests, it's clear that having the left main near a single used dub play a tone, it doesn't help a thing.

But having the full range center channel playing at -3dB relative to bass (meaning the sub was increased by 3dB hot and thus making it impossible to create a significant peak, only to fill in nulls), almost completely eliminates that 12dB null at 55Hz. The right speaker had little more effect than the left main. The surrounds were crossed at 80Hz and fell off around 60Hz so no help there.

So what would ART do with this system? Tell you to go buy one or two more subs? Or does that little test show it could solve the 55Hz mode using the center speaker? Is dialog taxing that speaker at 55Hz that can't be used? Is a complex waveform necessarily more difficult to reproduce than a simple one? A simple square wave can destroy a woofer, for example....
 

Sancus

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So what would ART do with this system? Tell you to go buy one or two more subs? Or does that little test show it could solve the 55Hz mode using the center speaker?
One test doesn't really show anything. On average, the center speaker is playing at +3dB of the L/R. On average, it's going to be more taxed. But in most cases people Also have centers that are significantly less capable than their L/R, so that makes it even worse.

Dirac doesn't recommend using the center for ARC, which may also have to do with its location, I don't really know. But I assume they have good reasons for that. If you WANT to use it ANYWAY, my understanding is that you're completely free to do so. So you can experiment in your own system to see what produces the best results.,
 

Magnus

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One test doesn't really show anything. On average

:rolleyes:

I just showed how AVERAGE level for mostly speech doesn't matter in terms of dealing with a momentary large load like an explosion. One test show anything? It was an example of precisely how the center can fix a mode the other speakers cannot. If it's true once, it's true a thousand times. This isn't quantum testing, after all. It's easily repeated.

Meanwhile, you have zero tests by comparison and utterly missed the point besides and the proceed to repeat what you already said before as if just saying it twice somehow changes anything... Thanks for wasting my time.

IGNORE ENABLED
 

Miker 1102

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This new tech by Dirac doesnt seem like its going to be on anything even at 5k range until 2025. I had been holding off to upgrade until Dirac was on Denon fully. Despite the price gauiging, the Denon was a better product than the cheap Pioneer and Integra's that came with Dirac already. Should I hold out for the hope and save up for a couple of years? I just feel like room treatments look dumb no matter how cool they are. It would be s great achievment to have tech that will make the room a non issue. I know that Sony has some spatial mapping but have only seen Andrew Robinson really review it. My understadning after watching Youthman is this Dirac product really could significantly change the game.
 

GXAlan

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This new tech by Dirac doesnt seem like its going to be on anything even at 5k range until 2025. I had been holding off to upgrade until Dirac was on Denon fully. Despite the price gauiging, the Denon was a better product than the cheap Pioneer and Integra's that came with Dirac already. Should I hold out for the hope and save up for a couple of years? I just feel like room treatments look dumb no matter how cool they are. It would be s great achievment to have tech that will make the room a non issue. I know that Sony has some spatial mapping but have only seen Andrew Robinson really review it. My understadning after watching Youthman is this Dirac product really could significantly change the game.

In theory, but nothing is real until it’s actually available, the Monolith HTP-1 will be delivering Dirac ART before the end of the year. See the main thread. Monoprice keeps saying there’s progress and no one has heard of a deal breaker yet…
 

dlaloum

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This new tech by Dirac doesnt seem like its going to be on anything even at 5k range until 2025. I had been holding off to upgrade until Dirac was on Denon fully. Despite the price gauiging, the Denon was a better product than the cheap Pioneer and Integra's that came with Dirac already. Should I hold out for the hope and save up for a couple of years? I just feel like room treatments look dumb no matter how cool they are. It would be s great achievment to have tech that will make the room a non issue. I know that Sony has some spatial mapping but have only seen Andrew Robinson really review it. My understadning after watching Youthman is this Dirac product really could significantly change the game.
Both Denon and Integra have indicated a 2024 release of ART on their AVR's...
 

GXAlan

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Both Denon and Integra have indicated a 2024 release of ART on their AVR's...
Have we seen that from a named industry representative? I have only seen one German review website mention Dirac ART for the AV10/A1H but the “insider” info posted here is reassuring… not to mention the multitude of multiple sub outputs for the current Denon line.

If the X3800H had Dirac ART it would be the cheapest, although the license would be pretty pricey to pair with a “lower” cost AVR.

I do think the Dirac AVR/AVPs that have a lot of subwoofer outputs are likely to get ART, but again, until I see it, even for the HTP-1, it’s a risk.
 

dlaloum

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Have we seen that from a named industry representative? I have only seen one German review website mention Dirac ART for the AV10/A1H but the “insider” info posted here is reassuring… not to mention the multitude of multiple sub outputs for the current Denon line.

If the X3800H had Dirac ART it would be the cheapest, although the license would be pretty pricey to pair with a “lower” cost AVR.

I do think the Dirac AVR/AVPs that have a lot of subwoofer outputs are likely to get ART, but again, until I see it, even for the HTP-1, it’s a risk.
Yep the AVR hardware becomes fairly generic at this stage... it is a matter of what licences are included, and what licences can be purchased additionally...

An X3800 will be among the most economical ART platforms... other competitors at the "budget" end will be the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer, and the HTP-1, although when you are paying US$1100 for ART, calling it "budget" seems a bit of a stretch.
 

Ciobi69

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Yep the AVR hardware becomes fairly generic at this stage... it is a matter of what licences are included, and what licences can be purchased additionally...

An X3800 will be among the most economical ART platforms... other competitors at the "budget" end will be the Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer, and the HTP-1, although when you are paying US$1100 for ART, calling it "budget" seems a bit of a stretch.
I hope it is true!
 

pogo

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This will probably be the first available AVR with DLART, and it could also make some external power amplifiers superfluous:cool:

 

seedragon

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This will probably be the first available AVR with DLART, and it could also make some external power amplifiers superfluous:cool:

That looks like a logical step forward from my JBL Synthesis SDR-35. I hope DL ART is made available on the SDR-35, but I wonder whether it can put out enough power on a relatively inefficient 5.2.4 system. The ISR Fusion 20 looks like it can.

That said, ~$20k is for an AVR steep. I could get a lot of amplification to supplement the SDR-35 for a fifth of that.
 
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dlaloum

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That looks like a logical step forward from my JBL Synthesis SDR-35. I hope DL ART is made available on the SDR-35, but I wonder whether it can put out enough power on a relatively inefficient 5.2.4 system. The ISR Fusion 20 looks like it can.

That said, ~$20k is for an AVR steep. I could get a lot of amplification to supplement the SDR-35 for a fifth of that.
Yes, Storm and Trinnov (and JBL), seem to own the premium end of this market...

Many of us are hoping to see ART on AVR's like the X3800 and RZ70, bringing the tech to a much larger (more budget oriented!) market ...

There has been no hint from the house of Harman with regards to ART so far.... (unless I missed something) - I would be surprised for ART not to be available on ARCAM/JBL kit...
 

juliangst

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I really hope ART will come to Marantz and Denon devices. I planned on getting the X3800 or the Cinema 50 but I won't pull the trigger until any of their devices gets the ART treatment.
I don't have a huge room, so getting control over bass with something like ART is even more important to me and I would rather save up 1000€ for a ART upgrade than getting mediocre results with large bass traps.
 

Curvature

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Hi. Any ideas whether ART and Bacch could work harmoniusly?
In theory - ART would correct the room, and Bacch would be layered on top of that.... but in practice....
You can control the filters for each.

BACCH's default XTC filter for LF is ~90Hz. And then you can adjust as necessary to make sure that ART and BACCH don't overlap.

XTC is not effective at LF anyway.
 
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