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Just how legit is this person's blind test results?

AdamG

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As a reminder of the wide and deep underbelly, of unscrupulous and highly corrupt individual’s/companies in this Consumer goods industry. Conduct a Search here for the words “Snake Oil’ and you will be greeted with Hundreds and hundreds of pages of absolute evidence. Anytime there is money and endorsements involved you just can’t take someone’s word for it. Doing so is a fool’s errand.

ASR is about the Science and Engineering aspect of Audio Reproduction Chain. This requires transparent peer review and robust verification methodology. Including Second and Third party observation and verification. You absolutely never just take someone’s word for it. Any hurdles that prevent or prohibit this transparent verification process are major Red Flags that conclude the results are not Factual and Repeatable. Wishing in a thing does not make it true. Good intentions alone are not sufficient to pass scientific scrutiny.

Never say never and always remain optimistic. But we have been down this road many times before, only to observe the process to be flawed and unreliable. 10 out of 10 claim, if real, should be easy to duplicate and verify by multiple people in multiple locations. Grandiose claims demand grandiose Vetting and Evidence.
 

JayGilb

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As a reminder of the wide and deep underbelly, of unscrupulous and highly corrupt individual’s/companies in this Consumer goods industry. Conduct a Search here for the words “Snake Oil’ and you will be greeted with Hundreds and hundreds of pages of absolute evidence. Anytime there is money and endorsements involved you just can’t take someone’s word for it. Doing so is a fool’s errand.

ASR is about the Science and Engineering aspect of Audio Reproduction Chain. This requires transparent peer review and robust verification methodology. Including Second and Third party observation and verification. You absolutely never just take someone’s word for it. Any hurdles that prevent or prohibit this transparent verification process are major Red Flags that conclude the results are not Factual and Repeatable. Wishing in a thing does not make it true. Good intentions alone are not sufficient to pass scientific scrutiny.

Never say never and always remain optimistic. But we have been down this road many times before, only to observe the process to be flawed and unreliable. 10 out of 10 claim, if real, should be easy to duplicate and verify by multiple people in multiple locations. Grandiose claims demand grandiose Vetting and Evidence.
I'm suspect from the very beginning based on the tester's attitude toward Amir and ASR. A few pictures and claims that he was out of the room when his family switched connections cannot be verified. Super Best Audio Friends is not know to be a paragon of scientific methodology.
 

Mnyb

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Yes results should be repeatable by others or it did not happen.
Experimental error is always the overwhelmingly most likely factor especially if you breaking new ground into what's was previously thought of as improbable be very very sceptic of your own result.
If I for instance where to do a listening test where distortions components <100dB where the thing to test I would not believe a positive result even if did the whole test myself, i would seek help to find out what's gone wrong .

If you do contrived tests and for example crank up the volume to the max and listen to noise signatures you might get something ?
(just like you can distinguish reverb tails in 24bit vs 16 bit with enough gain and only listen to the very faint end magnified to max )

It's very very hard and time consuming to test products properly especially about the auditability of their flaws..

The whole YouTube hifi reviewer economy relies on describing sonic differences in flowery language and to always be able to tell the differences and also have sonic preferences for some products and having opinions about everything.

This does not add up at all , only a small fraction of these channels would remain if they where factual and did things properly in a robust and reproduceable way.
 

Puddingbuks

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Why are there no blind reviewers? Or are there?
 

Keith_W

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As a reminder of the wide and deep underbelly, of unscrupulous and highly corrupt individual’s/companies in this Consumer goods industry. Conduct a Search here for the words “Snake Oil’ and you will be greeted with Hundreds and hundreds of pages of absolute evidence. Anytime there is money and endorsements involved you just can’t take someone’s word for it. Doing so is a fool’s errand.

Your above statement does not make it clear who you are referring to. But - given that it is in this thread, I would assume you are alleging that purr1n in SBAF was influenced by money for endorsements. Do you have evidence that this particular DBT was sponsored by the manufacturer?
 

AdamG

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Your above statement does not make it clear who you are referring to. But - given that it is in this thread, I would assume you are alleging that purr1n in SBAF was influenced by money for endorsements. Do you have evidence that this particular DBT was sponsored by the manufacturer?
First tip off is all the Endorsed Product Advertising on the Margins of every page of his site and forums. Including a direct Marketing link to Schiit product sales portal (right hand margin, 10th advert down):

Manufactures and Dealers (which he is endorsed by many and has them listed) don’t regularly Pay for negative or poor Reviews or publicity. Is that evidence? You be the judge. That’s why I spoke in generalities and did not refer to any specific person.
 
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delta76

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He called AmirNAD mockingly. Whatever he was doing, he already has a bias to confirm. As such, I would take his "test" with a grain of salt
 

rdenney

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Probably already said...

Let's deconstruct this a bit.

Blind testing means that the tester has no knowledge of which item is under test versus the control (or alternative) device or devices. Double-blind testing means that the person switching between those devices also has no knowledge of which item is selected. Blind testing is required, but double-blind testing ensures that the man behind the curtain isn't somehow revealing which is which (or even if there is or isn't a change in the device under test). Even the sound of a physical switch can be telling enough to violate that blindness, so testing technique is important and those conducting such tests spend a lot of time explaining and evaluating their technique.

Once the test is appropriately blind, a separate process is used to determine if the results are statistically significant. They must be clear enough to reject the reasonable possibility that the tester is lucky in his guessing. That requires lots and lots of repetition--far more than his kids entering through a different door and moving wires would tolerate unless his kids are different from any I've ever seen.

Blind, statistically significant testing is about subjective testing. I know that the word "subjective" is one we avoid, but the point of blind testing is not to make it objective, but rather to make it controlled. What makes it subjective is that it is measuring the user's response to the conditions under test. The correct term is "controlled subjective testing."

Objective testing, on the other hand, comprises measurements. Several things have to be true for measurements to be relevant:

1. The characteristic being measuree has to relate to something that affects what we hear,

2. The measurement has to evaluate that characteristic with usable accuracy, and

3. The result of the measurement has to have sufficient magnitude to affect the characteristic sufficiently to affect the subjective response. Endless arguments abound on this one point.

We are also challenged by the relationship between objective and controlled subjective testing. For me, the basic philosophy is that we understand how measured effects affect subjective responses. Thus, if someone claims subjective perception that violates that understanding, they carry a greater burden of proof of two important attributes of their claim. The first is that their perceptions are reliable, and for this we need controlled subjective testing as described above. (This is one of the thorny topics with audio. But if expensive stuff is better, then it is better because its designer was either smarter or more persistent, but there must be some relationship between the design the the performance that can be explained. Without that explanation, there is no reason to believe that anything can be designed. The designer must decide what to use based on some understanding of how that change might result in an improvement; without that, there is no basis for believing that any one designer can create more than one superior product. Quality becomes a matter of luck. This is nonsensical on the face of it, so the purveyors of snake oil don't even claim it. They instead come up with bogus science to explain the effect they claim, in the apparent expectation that even experts will take that science on face value.)

The second is that their measured effects are important, or that they form the basis for a preference of one versus the other. To evaluate importance, though, we have to agree on the outcome we want, and that will be a matter of familiarity and maybe taste, or, more importantly, of our listening objectives. Do we want it to sound like live music? Do we want it to be crystal clear in a noisy ambient environment? Do we want it to sound the way we remembered it from our youth? Do we want it to sound pleasing to us at some level of feelings that defy further deconstruction, even if the recording itself isn't recorded that way? Do we want it to be as absolutely faithful to the recording as possible? These objectives compete, but without understanding the objectives, the importance of perceptions (even those that can be reliably detected) cannot be applied to others. Much research has been aimed at modeling preferences as the empirical basis for determining the importance of a measurement. But there is a warning here, too. Preference models that are broadly based and statistically verified are good for manufacturers trying to hit the center of preference in the population, but they don't necessarily describe what you or I prefer. That takes us back to those objectives, whether they are stated or not. But if our preferences depart from broad preference testing, we should be prepared to both know and acknowledge that. Measurements and controlled subjective testing, however, can happily exist and be instructive separately from how closely it conforms to preference models.

Finally, when we read reviews that claim to perform measurements and controlled subjective testing, we have to believe that they are actually doing the things they say they are doing. In scientific research, test methods are clearly explained so that readers and reviewers of the work can have that confidence--it is never assumed on the basis of the researcher's reputation. And many who claim authority have demonstrated prior bias, and the burden on them to demonstrate their unbiased protocol increases as a result.

Here's the important point: The more the test results violate models that have been validated by measurements and controlled subjective testing, the greater the need for detail in describing the testing protocol. This is (or should be) common sense: If a witness in court is describing something that is inconsistent with what informed observers (i.e., the jury) accept as fact, the burden is put on the witness to back up their statements with more evidence. But even if testing verifies what is currently expected, it should be well enough described to eliminate or at least explain the biases inherent in it.

This ended up being a lot longer than I intended, but I think that demonstrates that it isn't quite as cut and dried as we often try to make it when we write "ABX!!!!!" Blind testing is not at all the whole story.

Rick "who reviews research reports for journals routinely" Denney
 
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GXAlan

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It’s reasonable. There is still a bell curve.


There may be some DC, some ground loops, or something else in the system. But you should do your own testing to determine.
 

HarmonicTHD

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To me, the most interesting thing is how defensive and concerned with ASR they seem to be over there. Someone must be feeling the effects of the testing done on this site.
Mostly two concerns. Commercial interest and the threat of undermining of sales and profits. Secondly also very powerful the questioning of existing beliefs and perceptions especially when solely acquired by subjective only listening.
 

Mr. Widget

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As a reminder of the wide and deep underbelly, of unscrupulous and highly corrupt individual’s/companies in this Consumer goods industry. Conduct a Search here for the words “Snake Oil’ and you will be greeted with Hundreds and hundreds of pages of absolute evidence. Anytime there is money and endorsements involved you just can’t take someone’s word for it. Doing so is a fool’s errand.
Viewing the hobby through that lens seems dark to me. At the end of the day we are not talking about nutritional aids that can actually harm people, we are talking about bringing the joy of music into people's homes. If spending $50 or $5,000 on a power cable that has zero effect on the system's performance but does not present a fire risk and it makes the purchaser happy then where is the harm. I prefer to always give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Never say never and always remain optimistic. But we have been down this road many times before, only to observe the process to be flawed and unreliable. 10 out of 10 claim, if real, should be easy to duplicate and verify by multiple people in multiple locations. Grandiose claims demand grandiose Vetting and Evidence.
But from the perspective of the average Absolute Sound or Stereophile reader, the assertion that most amplifiers and virtually all DACs sound the same is also a grandiose claim. One that is often defended by look at the measurements or you can't prove a negative.

Flawed human perception is the benchmark and this is what needs to be tested. At the end of the day something either is or is not audible and even though most objectivists feel that their opinion has been proved, I don't think that is the wider consensus. I want to see that grandiose vetting and evidence before I come to a conclusion.
 

rdenney

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Viewing the hobby through that lens seems dark to me. At the end of the day we are not talking about nutritional aids that can actually harm people, we are talking about bringing the joy of music into people's homes. If spending $50 or $5,000 on a power cable that has zero effect on the system's performance but does not present a fire risk and it makes the purchaser happy then where is the harm. I prefer to always give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

But from the perspective of the average Absolute Sound or Stereophile reader, the assertion that most amplifiers and virtually all DACs sound the same is also a grandiose claim. One that is often defended by look at the measurements or you can't prove a negative.

Flawed human perception is the benchmark and this is what needs to be tested. At the end of the day something either is or is not audible and even though most objectivists feel that their opinion has been proved, I don't think that is the wider consensus. I want to see that grandiose vetting and evidence before I come to a conclusion.
One must distinguish between expert designers (when they are doing their own thinking--not necessarily when playing the role of salesperson) and consumers who are the product of years of pretty writing that reflects mysticism and opposes known engineering principles, effects, and clear data on both those effects and on preferences.

But your point is that verification is necessary in all cases, and that's a good enough point.

Rick "nobody gets a pass based on reputation alone" Denney
 

SIY

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But from the perspective of the average Absolute Sound or Stereophile reader, the assertion that most amplifiers and virtually all DACs sound the same is also a grandiose claim. One that is often defended by look at the measurements or you can't prove a negative.
Grandiose? If that means "backed with 40+ years of data," sure. Backed with measurements, but more importantly for the question at hand, backed with null result after null result.

This particular claim is a bit of an outlier, but hasn't been validated nor the controls and procedure presented in enough detail to be replicated (or not).
 

Mr. Widget

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He called AmirNAD mockingly. Whatever he was doing, he already has a bias to confirm. As such, I would take his "test" with a grain of salt
I took that turn on SINAD as good natured humor. Of course he has a bias. We all do! Whether the bias is "I only trust the numbers I can see" or "I only trust my existing belief system".
To me, the most interesting thing is how defensive and concerned with ASR they seem to be over there. Someone must be feeling the effects of the testing done on this site.
I didn't see it as defensive. Since ASR is probably the loudest mouthpiece in the hobby who disputes the more widely held subjectivist views of the hobby, ASR is who he felt he should be referencing.

He doesn't need to go to this effort to convince the folks who are buying "audiophile" network switches and fancy IEC power cables. For them there is no need to "prove" anything.
 

JayGilb

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Viewing the hobby through that lens seems dark to me. At the end of the day we are not talking about nutritional aids that can actually harm people, we are talking about bringing the joy of music into people's homes. If spending $50 or $5,000 on a power cable that has zero effect on the system's performance but does not present a fire risk and it makes the purchaser happy then where is the harm. I prefer to always give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
I personally know people who have pissed away tens of thousands of dollars on guns, to the point where it has impacted their family life. They and their children live in a level of squalor due to their obsession. Hundreds of guns and boxes of ammo fill their trailers and dilapidated houses and their credit is maxed out.
The purchasers are certainly happy as are their children who know no better due to it being that way their whole life. I don't know if situations like that extend into audiophile's homes.

If you found out that a child's chance at higher education was stopped by their college funds being spent on cables and other superfluous gadgets, would that change you opinion ?
 

Mr. Widget

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Grandiose? If that means "backed with 40+ years of data," sure. Backed with measurements, but more importantly for the question at hand, backed with null result after null result.

This particular claim is a bit of an outlier, but hasn't been validated nor the controls and procedure presented in enough detail to be replicated (or not).
Yes, years and years of data. In the 70s the add copy in the magazines was filled with zeros... 0.01% distortion fighting with 0.0001% distortion claims... that was just as silly as discussing the pace rhythm and timing of a device.

At the end of the day, we either can or can not HEAR a difference. The correlation between what we measure and what we hear is getting better, but I do not believe we have 100% correlation yet.
 

DSJR

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I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds the perceived 'sound' can change on removing headphones and then replacing them. What's needed really is a 'blind' switch from A to B and maybe a switch click that does absolutely *nothing!* I do applaud someone trying to make sense of it all, but where those two Schiit boxes are concerned, I'd arguably go wit the one that looks best (I think visually the colour scheme is slightly different?). I know enough about live music to realise that compared to domestic audio reproduction, it's rather stark, not always musical or rhythmic :)D), but so many less experienced audiophiles go with the 'nicer tone' instead of stark reality facsimiles, if you see what I mean.

If the guy preferred the discrete model, then fine and I'm sure the guys at Schiit are pleased for him. These days I'd arguably go with the op-amp one with objectively better performance as I can't trust my ears alone at all to tell me - and that's fine too as I like the heretic stylee! I just don't see why it has to be a tribal battle and I do appreciate how difficult it is to do fair reviews with the best of intentions.
 
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