Yamaha R-N803 Smart Receiver Review

[scooter]

Not sure about what you mean, "a model of simplicity". Consider the "direct" signal in the R-Sxxx (same IC as the A-Sxxx) is running through this (another obsolete AVR chip):
View attachment 67496

Looking at this IC401 I can see that there is a bypass line for the front L & R channels located between the tone & volume controls. Then to the left there is a mode selector which switches FL & FR channels to either 42-43 pins (FRIN2-FLIN2) or to 90-91 pins (FLIN2-FRIN2). One pair of which should come directly from analog line (Pure Direct) and another from ADC-DSP-Various channel DACs stages (any other modes).
Accordingly in my opinion, though this is not a direct (switched by mechanical relay) route to the amp section, but it still avoids ADC/DAC double conversions and for the price it is really acceptable.
Just for example, I've a budget oriented Yamaha RX-V583 AVR and it was mentioned here various times that this model is lacking a "Pure Direct" mode compared to the Aventage series that have it properly implemented. I've checked schematics from service manual and found that it does support it. Similar to the above one, it has IC203 chip with 4-line mode selector, one of which directly connects analog stereo input signal to the FL & FR amp section.

 

[YogiN]

There are not a lot of 2.1 receivers out there with auto DSP. The only other two that I am aware of are the Denon DRA-800H and Elac DS-A101. Are either of them currently in the queue for review? That would be an interesting comparison.

The Denon DRA-800H doesn't have auto DSP to my knowledge.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I stand corrected. The DRA-800H has ARC (Audio Return Channel) which my mind conflated with ARC (Anthem Room Correction). I guess this leaves us with the more expensive and less powerful Elac DS-A101-G as a comparison.

 

[YogiN]

That is very impressive... I get fatigued about 2 minutes into the overture! On every pair of speakers I've ever owned, and almost every opera I've tried listening to. OK, that's mostly a simple difference of taste in music

Believe me, I know what you mean. My appreciation for this genre was somewhat recent, two years maybe, spontaneous, and completely antithetical to my previous preferences. Makes me a believer in the notion that what we like is truly involuntary.

however, I can easily understand and agree with the sentiment. If speakers really nail the vocal range... it's much easier to forgive other areas they fail miserably at.

These are my exact feelings on the matter.

 

[maty]

...Just for example, I've a budget oriented Yamaha RX-V583 AVR and it was mentioned here various times that this model is lacking a "Pure Direct" mode compared to the Aventage series that have it properly implemented. I've checked schematics from service manual and found that it does support it. Similar to the above one, it has IC203 chip with 4-line mode selector, one of which directly connects analog stereo input signal to the FL & FR amp section.

http://yamaha-es.com/en/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/rx-v583/downloads.html

Page 54, only Direct

 

[scooter]

only Direct

Correct, but it does the job pretty in similar way as the model reviewed here.

I've marked pure analog lines with red, so that it is clearly seen the route is pure analog when DIRECT mode is chosen on RX-V583.

 

[maty]

I understand that in Direct or Pure Direct the cheap ICxxx that regulates the tone in the AVR is partially avoided.

 

[Ron Texas]

I find the AVR category to be very interesting due to the complexity of these products. I guess this could be called a 2 channel AVR.

 

[amadeuswus]

Thanks Amir for this review. I bought my refurbished R-N803 from Accessories4less for about $530. When available, the refurbished units are now $579.99.

https://www.accessories4less.com/ma...x-100-watts-networking-stereo-receiver/1.html

I think it's a great value considering that it's a solid amplifier with DAC, streaming, room correction (I haven't tried it), phono stage, FM/AM tuner, and subwoofer out. I haven't tried the MusicCast app though--all my streaming has been via AirPlay.

 

[restorer-john]

Not wanting to derail this review thread, I've posted a thread to discuss direct signal paths.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...entations-benefits-issues-and-thoughts.13864/

 

[infinitesymphony]

I'd be interested in comparing this to some stereo amp/receiver from Pioneer, we had some multichannel previosly, but none pure stereo.
(e.g. similarly priced A-50DA or lower models as well)
Or comparison with horses form the same stable, like pro amps from PX / XP series..

What we're finding is that component receivers and integrated amps have not substantially improved since the early 2000s. Dig up the spec sheets for any number of amps from a reliable manufacturer and you're likely to discover something at your local thrift store for $25 with specs similar to items in today's $1K range.

 

[restorer-john]

What we're finding is that component receivers and integrated amps have not substantially improved since the early 2000s. Dig up the spec sheets for any number of amps from a reliable manufacturer and you're likely to discover something at your local thrift store for $25 with specs similar to items in today's $1K range.

This is true. What you miss out on is the connectivity options (BT/WiFi/LAN etc), but if that's of no importance to you, the value proposition of the secondary market is hard to ignore.

I organized one of the top Yamaha R-Nxxx receivers for one of my best friends as he wanted Pandora/Spotify/Music Cast/WiFi whatever, and just one box that did it all with a decent amount of power (NOT an audiophile but keen gadget guy). The first receiver lasted about 2 weeks before the Bluetooth failed. The second (sealed box replacement) unit failed unrelated to bluetooth and needed a factory re-flash in another few weeks. The third one is still going well but for AU$1399 or so, I was disgusted with Yamaha. I was embarassed as I'd taken him into the store to see a salesman I used to work with years ago (when I sold Yamaha) and personally recommended the unit. My friend thought it was funny- he's cool like that.

The encoder dials and switches were cheap and wiggly as Amir has found. The display was average and the navigation for setup and entering long WiFi passkeys was pain personified. I couldn't get the Yamaha Music Cast to work and neither could my friend. The powered Music Cast speaker he also bought is still in its box...

 

[Robbo99999]

My overall take on this product. If you were limiting yourself to two channels only (like this product does), then wouldn't it instead make more sense to buy active speakers, a miniDSP and a seperate DAC, which you'd combine with REW to perform your room EQ....at which point you'd end up with even greater room EQ flexibility as well as massively improved sound quality (as seen by the large increase in noise when room EQ mode is activated on this Yamaha unit). I think the cost of the miniDSP and seperate DAC would be cheaper than the cost of this Yamaha unit whilst gaining increased roomEQ abilities and also improved sound quality. (I guess you might miss out on some input connectivity options, but I've not looked at that in detail.)

What you guys think, am I right about this, or have I overlooked some stuff? I think the only argument for this Yamaha product is if you've already got passive speakers you're happy with, rather than someone setting out to build a whole new 2-channel system.

 

[scooter]

wouldn't it instead make more sense to buy active speakers

One also needs to try hard to find an active speaker which doesn't digitize signal at the input.

 

[Robbo99999]

One also needs to try hard to find an active speaker which doesn't digitize signal at the input.

Is that the argument that the conversion from analogue to digital within the active speaker and then the conversion back out to analog (within the speaker too) before it is sent to drivers....is that the argument that the conversion process degrades the quality? I'm not too familiar with the active speaker technologies (even though I own a pair myself!), is that how it works, is that how most active speakers are setup?

I think when reading around this before, I concluded that the ADC-DAC process that occurs does not degrade audio performance.....and certainly not to the level of sound degredation seen by this Yamaha unit in the review once roomEQ mode is turned on. (I think I also remember reading somewhere here on the forums where it was proved that ADC-DAC conversions could happen even 17 times over and still wouldn't degrade sound quality.)

 

[scooter]

It is really a different story if these conversions are audible for a human ear, but the measurements show that there is a significant amount of degradation.
And for the final result, why bother to purchase so many external well performing audio elements if in the end it becomes recoverted again?
Regarding active speakers, I'm not sure what percentage of them offer pure analog paths, but the most I've seen have A/D-D/A stages.

 

[pavuol]

My overall take on this product. If you were limiting yourself to two channels only (like this product does), then wouldn't it instead make more sense to buy active speakers, a miniDSP and a seperate DAC, which you'd combine with REW to perform your room EQ....at which point you'd end up with even greater room EQ flexibility as well as massively improved sound quality (as seen by the large increase in noise when room EQ mode is activated on this Yamaha unit). I think the cost of the miniDSP and seperate DAC would be cheaper than the cost of this Yamaha unit whilst gaining increased roomEQ abilities and also improved sound quality. (I guess you might miss out on some input connectivity options, but I've not looked at that in detail.)

What you guys think, am I right about this, or have I overlooked some stuff? I think the only argument for this Yamaha product is if you've already got passive speakers you're happy with, rather than someone setting out to build a whole new 2-channel system.

Yes you have overlooked one important feature, that is how will you than tune in FM radio station when your great grandfather pay you a visit?

 

[Robbo99999]

It is really a different story if these conversions are audible for a human ear, but the measurements show that there is a significant amount of degradation.
And for the final result, why bother to purchase so many external well performing audio elements if in the end it becomes recoverted again?
Regarding active speakers, I'm not sure what percentage of them offer pure analog paths, but the most I've seen have A/D-D/A stages.

Hmm, I'm not convinced on your assertions there with regard to significant degredation...it's in contrast to what I've learned previously regarding single or even multiple A/D to D/A conversions. One thing for sure is that 'issue/effect' is massively less significant than the massively increased noise introduced by using this Yamaha unit in roomEQ mode, so even taking your argument at 'best case' it pales into insignificance vs the wider & more significant issue of the noisy roomEQ mode of the Yamaha. Even when not used in RoomEQ mode, this Yamaha doesn't have stellar performance....you could achieve significantly better in all areas by using active speakers/miniDSP/seperate DAC/REW EQ software for probably a lower cost (assuming you don't already have passive speakers and that you're building a new 2 channel system from scratch).

In general I think you're overplaying the significance/effect of A/D-D/A conversions.

 

[scooter]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-receiver-audio-measurements-png.67410/[/IMG]

In terms of measurements I think this is a significant amount what A/D-D/A is causing.
If we could measure how particular active speaker (one with digitizing signal) performs, then it can be discussed whether external DSP implementation is worth or not.

 

[Robbo99999]

In terms of measurements I think this is a significant amount what A/D-D/A is causing.
If we could measure how particular active speaker (one with digitizing signal) performs, then it can be discussed whether external DSP implementation is worth or not.

I think this miniDSP 2x4HD for instance is better than the Yamaha when it comes to performance when Yamaha is in RoomEQ mode:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...urements-and-minidsp-2x4-hd-dsp-and-dac.2674/

So there's better, cheaper, and more effective roomEQ options out there if you want a 2 channel system with DSP options. I think there's some even better miniDSP's out there too.

In terms of measuring any negative effects of A/D-D/A conversions that happen in active speakers is a bit of an unknown, but I've seen lots of evidence that A/D-D/A do not negatively affect sound quality even when done numerous times. Like I said before I think I've seen somewhere here on the forums prove that if you convert A/D-D/A even 17 times and you don't loose any information - I should probably google that to see if I can find it but I've been too lazy, was hoping another member would chime in that had the link to hand.

EDIT: Active speakers are some of the best measuring speakers here on audiosciencereview anyway, so the active/passive speaker argument is a bit moot when trying to use any A/D-D/A conversion based arguments.

 

[djigibao]

I'm not sure how MiniDSP must be connected.
Is there some scheme (link) or can someone explain to me please?

I'm thinking is like this but not sure:
Source->MiniDSP->Amp->Speakers

Can it go like this?
Source->Amp->MiniDSP->Speakers

If can only goes like this (Source->MiniDSP->Amp->Speakers) then I can go without MiniDSP and only use PC and Equalizer APO with REW measurement's.
PC (with Equalizer APO)->Amp->Speakers