Advice: difficult to drive speakers, struggling amplifier

[voodooless]

I think some good advice has been given here, let's consolidate:

- The amp is probably fine
- The room greatly influences the sound, so playing with speaker/sub placement is important
- If possible, try to measure your in-room response. This will show you where the issues are, and will also help you to integrate the sub better.

For bass measurements, even a phone FFT app may already yield some basic results, at least enough to identify the issues.

 

[Doodski]

@Doodski Love ya man, but things have moved on since you and I were repairing this stuff.

Yamaha have NTCs on each heatsink, the power transformer and the bridge rectifier (can you believe that??). Each read by an A/D (analogue to digital line) on the micro. And of course, DC offset, over current, over voltage (in some cases) and I/T sensing.

You can hook up four pairs of speakers in parallel and they will protect themselves. You can play some rap flat out and wrap the amp in a blanket and it will be fine.

LoL... You made my asthma cough start because you made me chuckle so much. If you say so I'll relax a bit on the impedance caution I had.

 

[Ma-ik]

Wouldn't this suggest that the music would sound fine (good) most of the time, and only sound off when these massive peaks occurred. That doesn't seem to be OP's issue.

I'd second the suggestions to audition different speakers, radically change speaker placement or to turn off YPAO (and to try alternate DSP)

"That doesn't seem to be OP's issue" - In fact, this is the closest description to what is happening, most of the time the music sounds reasonable, but in the parts where the bass is supposed to be more prominent and detailed it sounds sometimes swallowed and smeared, it's like it manages to express most of the frequencies except the low ones. and in most of my music the requirement to express low frequencies is almost constant.
The subwoofer has already returned to the store, so I'm currently running without a subwoofer and the ypao is completely off, so I can hear the speakers right now as they are and I'm not satisfied anyway, although at the moment the speakers are without low cut and they are very close to the wall and I will expand on this in the reply below..
about your suggestion changing the position of the speakers, I will definitely try even though I don't have many options here unfortunately, thanks for the advice.

Companies quote numbers that they think will make their product look good. Look for independent measurement, and if it doesn't match your needs then don't buy it.
Go look at the amps actually tested here as your starting point. What do they actually do into four ohms? Then look for other review sites that measure, even if they don't do it as well - and remember that HiFi News and Stereophile do measure actual power as well.

Another random thought - I didn't check for recommended placement, read the guide for your speakers. Er... they may simply need to be closer to the wall behind them. Unlikely. but have a look.

If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that my speakers shouldn't be any closer to the wall they're 8 cm away from the wall and the guide recommends 15-30 cm if I'm not mistaken, that's why I insist on an amplifier with internal crossover capability in the first place, prevent the speakers from expressing the low frequencies.

The subwoofer may simply be badly placed as well. And you will probably be better off with the crossover set higher. The slope of the crossover is also important. Set the crossover to 80Hz.
Remember, the crossover is not just a crossover point, both sub and speaker are still working on either side of the crossover point according to the slope. Your speakers roll off, and may have a hump at 90 or 100 Hz. Your current settings may cause the sub to not be doing enough of the work at 40Hz. Without measurements, it's also likely that the impedance issues are at least partly at the low end with your speakers,

As a general guide, I'd advise getting the speakers to work as well as possible without the sub and then adding it back in, as well

When I was still with the emotiva ta-1 I tried this option since it has an analog crossover switch fixed to 90hz, with no calibration software like ypao and it still didn't sound good to me..
I also tried with the Yamaha different cuts, and then I felt that the more I increased the crossover the sound sounded less good, I noticed that when I release more low frequencies to the speakers everything sounds better, so I decided to stay at 60hz.
And you will be very surprised but the ypao changed by itself after calibration for crossover at 40 Hz.

When I have ypao activated, the crossover settings in the svs sub are disabled and also the option to select a slope.
I have the impression that it is a terrible mistake to mess with two DSP's in two parts of the system, I am sure there is some kind of incompatibility.

"Remember, the crossover is not just a crossover point" - Yes I understand, it doesn't drop at the crossover point straight away, it continues to drop gradually according to the slope. I'm not sure that's the problem but thanks for the advice..

and as I mentioned before, I'm ordering another subwoofer with a slightly different design and it may improve something in the integration with the speakers. and he doesn't have DSP like the svs, so interesting to try..
When it arrives I will try all kinds of cuts

 

[Ma-ik]

I think some good advice has been given here, let's consolidate:

- The amp is probably fine
- The room greatly influences the sound, so playing with speaker/sub placement is important
- If possible, try to measure your in-room response. This will show you where the issues are, and will also help you to integrate the sub better.

For bass measurements, even a phone FFT app may already yield some basic results, at least enough to identify the issues.

״- The amp is probably fine״ - This is still up for debate

Thank you very much to everyone for the good suggestions, I promise to update later if there are any developments, I need to examine the situation here...

 

[JeremyFife]

"That doesn't seem to be OP's issue" - In fact, this is the closest description to what is happening, most of the time the music sounds reasonable, but in the parts where the bass is supposed to be more prominent and detailed it sounds sometimes swallowed and smeared, it's like it manages to express most of the frequencies except the low ones. and in most of my music the requirement to express low frequencies is almost constant.

Noted, thanks for the correction / clarification

 

[ehabheikal]

Your room may be to blame. Some rooms could never sound good.
I have svs sb 1000 pro 2 subs and they go to 20hz in my room. I have driac from minidsp flex.
Also your subs can do the crossover so you do not really need an amp with crossover.
Also you need to ponder that it is your speakers that are the problem.

 

[Chagall]

Your room may be to blame. Some rooms could never sound good.
I have svs sb 1000 pro 2 subs and they go to 20hz in my room. I have driac from minidsp flex.
Also your subs can do the crossover so you do not really need an amp with crossover.
Also you need to ponder that it is your speakers that are the problem.

Don't agree. If the mains are not crossed, they and the amp will only work harder and probably create peaks in that region and have more distortion. It's difficult to match natural roll-off of the mains without a measuring mic.

Or do you mean sub can high-pass signal to the mains? But that seems a complication if the crossover is already in the amp.

 

[Roland68]

״- The amp is probably fine״ - This is still up for debate

Thank you very much to everyone for the good suggestions, I promise to update later if there are any developments, I need to examine the situation here...

A few questions about the situation:
- Are the Solanos on speaker stands? What kind?
- Is the entire room 6.5 x 3.4 meters, or is the dining room open to it? If so, how many additional square meters?
- How far apart are the speakers and how much space is there between them and the side walls?

 

[Ma-ik]

A few questions about the situation:
- Are the Solanos on speaker stands? What kind?
- Is the entire room 6.5 x 3.4 meters, or is the dining room open to it? If so, how many additional square meters?
- How far apart are the speakers and how much space is there between them and the side walls?

-No, the speakers are not on stands
-The measurements are only for the living room area, as shown in the picture, it is open to the dining room. i will measure the dining area and update
-The speakers are 2.90 meters from the listening position, in the picture you can see that only the right speaker is close to a side wall, the distance is exactly 1 meter

 

[Chagall]

This placement would be best considering the room IMO. The furniture is not exact - don't know the dimensions.
Also, you need to leave some space behind the mains to the wall (min. 20 cm from the back side of the speakers) and toe them in to the listening position. The space behind the speaker can be a bit smaller if the sub takes on more of the low end (80, 90, or 100 Hz). The subwoofer will have more SPL in the corner if lacking bass.

The problem will certainly be low-end hot spots along the walls and who knows about the nulls.

px = cm

 

[Ma-ik]

This placement would be best considering the room IMO. The furniture is not exact - don't know the dimensions.
Also, you need to leave some space behind the mains to the wall (min. 20 cm from the back side of the speakers) and toe them in to the listening position. The space behind the speaker can be a bit smaller if the sub takes on more of the low end (80, 90, or 100 Hz). The subwoofer will have more SPL in the corner if lacking bass.

The problem will certainly be low-end hot spots along the walls and who knows about the nulls.

View attachment 388651


px = cm

Wow thanks a lot, really appreciate it!!

I currently cannot apply the equilateral triangle you drew, the storage unit on which the speakers sit is only 1.80, later when I have stands I will be able to apply it easily, but I understood the idea..
And I will move the subwoofer from its place to the corner and back to hear where there is a better result..

sorry for digressing from the topic, but does it matter if I go for a down firing sub vs front?
I've read that a down-firing subwoofer is less sensitive to position, especially in spaces where the opposite wall is close to the wall where the subwoofer are..

 

[TurtlePaul]

Now that you are on the gear carousel with multiple amps and multiple subs, let’s see how long before you get a measurement mic to find out what is actually happening…

 

[TurtlePaul]

Wow thanks a lot, really appreciate it!!

I currently cannot apply the equilateral triangle you drew, the storage unit on which the speakers sit is only 1.80, later when I have stands I will be able to apply it easily, but I understood the idea..
And I will move the subwoofer from its place to the corner and back to hear where there is a better result..

sorry for digressing from the topic, but does it matter if I go for a down firing sub vs front?
I've read that a down-firing subwoofer is less sensitive to position, especially in spaces where the opposite wall is close to the wall where the subwoofer are..

It matters very little, but you want to have the sub driver close to the wall because the length of the sub moves the driver quite far i to the room as a proportion of the room dimension. Try to have your front firing sub fire sideways.

 

[raindance]

The music the OP mentioned has very little dynamic range so I wouldn't worry about peaks.

The crossover frequency needs to be higher than 60Hz - for 90's dance music there isn't much down below there - I'd suggest 100Hz.

If the music sounds distorted perhaps there is some other issue...

 

[TurtlePaul]

If the music sounds distorted perhaps there is some other issue...

If I had to take a guess - and it is just a guess - the asymetric room with the speakers and listening position too close to opposing room boundaries is creating a big mid-bass suck out and makes the bass sound all wrong. I am pretty convinced the problem is frequency response and not distortion.

 

[Holmz]

The music the OP mentioned has very little dynamic range so I wouldn't worry about peaks.

The crossover frequency needs to be higher than 60Hz - for 90's dance music there isn't much down below there - I'd suggest 100Hz.

If the music sounds distorted perhaps there is some other issue...

In popular music the 13dB crest was common.
Even in compressed music the crest factor is generally in the 4-8 dB range, so the 23W can become 100W peaks.

It is not an RMS calculator, the Crown calculator builds in headroom. 400 watts is 18.4 dB of headroom, which is plenty.
…

Ok 18 dB should be enough.

Wouldn't this suggest that the music would sound fine (good) most of the time, and only sound off when these massive peaks occurred. That doesn't seem to be OP's issue.
…

The peaks are not once in a while like, seconds apart… they are more continuous, unless the sound is going to zero.

…
As a general guide, I'd advise getting the speakers to work as well as possible without the sub and then adding it back in, as well

Yeah start ^here^.
As someone mentioned‘ “out of phase” that should be checked.

Once you get the speaker positioned to sound good (if they do), then add the sub.
But starting with more variables is usually harder than starting out more simply.

 

[Galliardist]

Thanks for replying to my last post.

I think the most important thing for now is to buy the stands, and experiment with the options people gave you for positioning. Try the speakers on the opposite wall as well.

I'm not sure if furnishings have been mentioned. Try also curtains on the window if you don’t have any, and a thick rug on the floor if it’s bare.

I wonder what YPAO is doing - looks like it's trying to cope with a setup issue. Out of phase has already been mentioned and might be it?

 

[Chrispy]

FWIW I'd tend to think it's the speakers/room more than the amp. Why do speakers need to be so close to a boundary? Can you move them out for more critical listening even if just temporarily? I also was wondering about the sub having a crossover or just a low pass filter, but if it's been returned more a moot point but I'd also try a higher crossover. Some basic info even via a phone app as to frequency response and levels might be helpful....

 

[EJ3]

It sound like you just don’t like your speakers. Don’t blame the amps. Sometimes sounding good in a showroom doesn’t have to sound good at home.

I'll change "sometimes" to "many times".
The old style, family run stereo places that would let you "borrow" for a week or 2 is what I really miss.