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Advice: difficult to drive speakers, struggling amplifier
- Thread starter Ma-ik
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- Thread Starter
- #22
Galliardist
Major Contributor
The description of the sound you give reads as if the amplifier isn't providing enough power to drive the bass, yes. I'd suggest that this amp is basically the R-N803 but with a lower rated power supply. And I'd also suggest that the minimum impedance of the speaker isn't even the full story. @Duke's point re actual sensitivity will play into this as well.
Something has to be changed here: if the dealer you bought the speakers from can help you audition more powerful amps (a genuine 200W/channel into 4 Ohms would be a starting point) and you can afford them that is one way to go, but I'd look at more sensitive speakers that you can get measurements for as a starting point.
If your speakers are sat directly on a shelf or other furniture as your diagram suggests, you should consider a stand of some sort between them which will also improve bass definition.
Something has to be changed here: if the dealer you bought the speakers from can help you audition more powerful amps (a genuine 200W/channel into 4 Ohms would be a starting point) and you can afford them that is one way to go, but I'd look at more sensitive speakers that you can get measurements for as a starting point.
If your speakers are sat directly on a shelf or other furniture as your diagram suggests, you should consider a stand of some sort between them which will also improve bass definition.
- Thread Starter
- #24
Yes, the next thing I'll buy after I'm done with the system is stands!
Regarding amplifiers, and forgive me if I digress a bit from the topic, does the rating written next to the power input on the back of amplifiers give any indication of power beyond the technical specifications?
For example CXA61 power consumption 600w, and my Yamaha consumes 250w... does this mean that the Cambridge has more power to supply at peaks than 90w as stated in the technical specifications?
- Thread Starter
- #25
As you can see I still have hope to come out here only with a good level integrated amplifier 
but not necessarily the cxa61, there are many other amplifiers that I can try and maybe they will give me the result I want, on the other hand instead of going round and round i can simply go for an separate power amp with enough power..
budget can be a little flexible but ranges between 1000-1300 euros including the preamplifier/source, if there are any suggestions based on experience only i would appreciate it
I don't buy products in my country, it's too expensive, I order from Europe mainly and making demos is slightly problematic because the stores expect me to buy from them after they gave me a service, but still worth a try
but not necessarily the cxa61, there are many other amplifiers that I can try and maybe they will give me the result I want, on the other hand instead of going round and round i can simply go for an separate power amp with enough power..budget can be a little flexible but ranges between 1000-1300 euros including the preamplifier/source, if there are any suggestions based on experience only i would appreciate it
I don't buy products in my country, it's too expensive, I order from Europe mainly and making demos is slightly problematic because the stores expect me to buy from them after they gave me a service, but still worth a try
Not necessarily. The higher power consumption of the Cambridge could be because it is electrically a less efficient design.
DVDdoug
Major Contributor
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The consumption is the maximum it will "pull" out of the wall. The only thing that tells you is that you'll get less than 600W to the speakers. Some energy is wasted as heat, and it will only consume 600W with constant full-maximum-power test tones. It's a "worst case" spec so you know how much stuff you can plug into an electrical circuit without blowing a circuit breaker. It might really never exceed 500W...
With music it will consume less, even with the amplifier clipping on the peaks. Class D amplifiers with switching power supplies are more efficient with less energy lost as heat (at full power*) but of course you can't ever get 100% of the energy transferred to the speakers. Class-A amplifiers are the least efficient.
* A class-D amplifier won't necessarily consume less power (or generate less heat) than a regular class A/B amp at low levels or moderate levels, or with no audio.
You either don’t like how your speakers sound in your room or don’t like YPAO (it isn’t very good). The amp has plenty of power.
I didn't see anyone address your comment about the distance for the sub....better term is delay, not a calculator of physical distance, typically a program like YPAO will adjust for inherent delay in your sub.
- Thread Starter
- #31
Do you have this amp? On paper, he has a lot of power.
Regarding the YPAO, this amplifier comes with the basic version because you can't really change many of the settings that the ypao sets, there are many options that are missing..definitely not like in their home theater receivers...and I was not at all impressed by the ypao version in this amplifier.
maybe it affects the sound even when it is turned off? Because I tried to run with ypao off and the speakers still didn't dance like they should..
״You either don’t like how your speakers sound in your room״ - There is one detail that I forgot to mention, the speakers I listened to in the store were the model before the update that ELAC did this year.. There are currently two versions of the same model, solano bs283 and solano 2.0 bs283.2 and they look exactly the same except the tweeter's grill (and the tweeter itself, jet 6 instead of 5), me i have the updated new version 2.0 283.2 and it's not exactly the same speaker i listen in the store...
BUT even if they changed the sound a little, it's still not my problem with this speakers, my problem is that they don't sound clean and full enough at my desired volume, so I tend to rule out this doubt...but who knows haha..
audio_tony
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I have a similar room layout. The bass is much better with the speakers 'firing' down the room rather than across it (I lose a LOT of bass if I position them across the room).
I'd suggest trying your speakers where your window is (temporarily of course) to see if the bass improves.
- Thread Starter
- #33
Very interesting, but I set a 60hz crossover on the speakers, there shouldn't be much bass energy built up from the speakers... and in the same context, maybe this is what happened to me with the svs subwoofer (front firing)? maybe that's why I felt that it didn't have enough bass, and like it didn't fill the missing part that the crossover took from the speakers?
I mean, maybe a down firing subwoofer would do a better job in my case? And instead of firing from wall to wall, he would fire to the floor and sprade the bass more effectively?
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Holmz
Major Contributor
That 23W is RMS, but if the music is dynamic, then it is not unreasonable for one to require 400 for peaks.Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English (US)
www.crownaudio.com
23W
That's to get 80dB SPL and calling your speaker sensitivity 82dB
Your problem is not amplification.
Also if the minimum impedance is 3.2 ohms, we do not know what the mean impedance is, or what the phase behaviour is.
If the speaker is up around 8 ohms, then a 200W amp at 4 ohms is only a 100W amp at 8 ohms.
^this^
- Thread Starter
- #35
Hope this will help, from what I could find https://www.i-fidelity.net/testberichte/hifi/elac-solano-bs-283/seite-5.html (nominal impedance according the specs is 4 ohm)
"^this^" - Yes I'm still processing the data haha but yes, I plan to go listen to some more options, both amplifiers and speakers..
It is not an RMS calculator, the Crown calculator builds in headroom. 400 watts is 18.4 dB of headroom, which is plenty.
I am in the camp of getting a measurement mic to figure out what is actually being heard in this setup. The non-symmetrical layout of the room could be creating some low frequency phase effects and cancelations.
Galliardist
Major Contributor
Companies quote numbers that they think will make their product look good. Look for independent measurement, and if it doesn't match your needs then don't buy it.
Go look at the amps actually tested here as your starting point. What do they actually do into four ohms? Then look for other review sites that measure, even if they don't do it as well - and remember that HiFi News and Stereophile do measure actual power as well.
Another random thought - I didn't check for recommended placement, read the guide for your speakers. Er... they may simply need to be closer to the wall behind them. Unlikely. but have a look.
JeremyFife
Major Contributor
Wouldn't this suggest that the music would sound fine (good) most of the time, and only sound off when these massive peaks occurred. That doesn't seem to be OP's issue.
I'd second the suggestions to audition different speakers, radically change speaker placement or to turn off YPAO (and to try alternate DSP)
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
@Doodski Love ya man, but things have moved on since you and I were repairing this stuff.
Yamaha have NTCs on each heatsink, the power transformer and the bridge rectifier (can you believe that??). Each read by an A/D (analogue to digital line) on the micro. And of course, DC offset, over current, over voltage (in some cases) and I/T sensing.
You can hook up four pairs of speakers in parallel and they will protect themselves. You can play some rap flat out and wrap the amp in a blanket and it will be fine.
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Galliardist
Major Contributor
The subwoofer may simply be badly placed as well. And you will probably be better off with the crossover set higher. The slope of the crossover is also important. Set the crossover to 80Hz.
Remember, the crossover is not just a crossover point, both sub and speaker are still working on either side of the crossover point according to the slope. Your speakers roll off, and may have a hump at 90 or 100 Hz. Your current settings may cause the sub to not be doing enough of the work at 40Hz. Without measurements, it's also likely that the impedance issues are at least partly at the low end with your speakers,
As a general guide, I'd advise getting the speakers to work as well as possible without the sub and then adding it back in, as well
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