Advice: difficult to drive speakers, struggling amplifier

[Ma-ik]

I recently decided to replace my jbl sound bar+sub that I had in the living room (6.5 x 3.4 meters, a narrow and open space to a dining area).
I purchased Elac solano bs283.2 speakers, after listining them at the store i really liked their tone as well as the design and build..these speakers are rated 85db sensitivity and 4ohms with drops to 3.2 ohms, and the recommended amplifier according to the manufacturer's specs is 40 - 200W.

I was looking for an amplifier that would suit all my needs, sub out, bluetooth, crossover, looks good.
I wasn't sure how much power I really needed so I started with a relatively cheap option like the emotiva ta-1, I thought that the fact that I hear at a relatively low volume 75-80 dB maximum I could get away with it, in addition I also bought a svs sb1000 pro to complete the the low region.
But unfortunately it turned out to be insufficient both in terms of the sound and because of the fact that I had to squeeze the volume up to 75-70%, I was not satisfied with the result so I decided to go for something more powerful.

My next option was the Yamaha R-N800A, it gets really good reviews, although I've seen more reviews and measurements of the r-n803 than the new model..
anyway I still thought to myself, how much difference could there be between the models, i assumed that Yamaha is a reliable company and if the r-n803 is so positively reviewed the new model is probably close to it in performance... so I decided to go with the r-n800a.

After I connected everything, I set the crossover on the svs app to OFF (LFE active), I set the volume to half, I ran YPAO, I played some lossless files from my macbook, then some soundcloud/youtube links, and I'm still not satisfied with what I hear, of course with lossless tracks that are really really good recorded it sounds fine but still something was missing for me.
I felt that the woofer of the speakers hardly moved, that the bass from the subwoofer is not full enough even at a fairly high volume (here it's more about the software i think) , the resolution is not good enough, the bass in particular sounds imprecise and lame from the speakers, is this how a clipping amplifier sounds like?

The YPAO was the first suspect, I noticed that it incorrectly sets the distance of the sub, no matter what I do, it always calculates the sub a meter more than it really is, and in general I started to lose faith in this software very quickly.
I tried to run the calibration a few more times until I reached the best result that the software allows me (of course I turned off the auto eq and the YPAO volume, it sounded really bad with them on) and I still wasn't satisfied..
In the end I gave up and decided to reset all the settings of the YPAO and turn it off completely and try without it, I also tried with pure direct and I'm almost sure that even when the YPAO is off it affects the sound somehow with the settings it creates in it, but I haven't been able to verify it yet.

I thought the r-n800a can handle difficult loads, and can provide at least 200 watts, whats going on ?? maybe Yamaha decided to cut costs on this model compared to the r-n803? I saw that there is little difference in THD numbers and power between the models but I am not knowledgeable enough to determine:

R-N803 - Minimum RMS power (20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.019% THD 8Ω 100W+100W , Maximum power per channel (1 kHz, 0.7% THD, 4Ω) 160 W
R-N800 - Rated Output Power (20 Hz to 20 kHz, 0.07% THD 8Ω 100W+100W , 4Ω 100W+100W - the 4 ohm figure does not appear in my manual, it is from an online manual, Is this the symptom of power limitation that known in Yamaha receivers (like r-n600a)?

R-N803 - IEC Power (1 kHz 0.04% THD, 8Ω) 115 W
R-N800 - IEC Power (1 kHz 0.07% THD, 8 Ω) 115 W

R-N803 - Maximum effective output power (JEITA) (1 kHz, 10% THD, 8Ω 145 W
R-N800 - Maximum Effective Output Power (JEITA, 1 kHz, 10% THD 8Ω 145 W , 4Ω 140 W - power limitation?!

I would appreciate any advice on what to do from here.. because as you can see I am quite confused already:

*are these speakers so difficult to drive and I won't be able to get out of it without add an external power amplifier? and if so, should I really look for double the power? (400 watts at 4 ohms?)
*maybe it's better for me to give up the speakers and buy something easier to drive without drops to 3.2ohms and 87-88db sensitivity?
*Maybe the whole problem is the YPAO and if I change to a better amplifier with the same power it will solve my problem?
*Does anyone have experience with this amp with speakers at similar specs and will be able to share his experience? maybe the r-n800 should be enough and I'm missing something?

Thank you all in advance

 

[DVDdoug]

emotiva ta-1,

Your amplifier is rated for 100W at 4-Ohms and your speakers rated for 200W maximum. Double the power is +3dB louder. That's "noticeable" but not "significantly louder" and you might not notice a 3dB difference from one day to the next. (+6dB is 4 times the power and +10dB is 10 times the power.)

If you want to experiment with "exact" dB changes to get a feel for it, Audacity can do that. But since most digital files are normalized/maximized, start with an "amplification" (attenuation) of -3dB, or some other attenuation.

I had to squeeze the volume up to 75-70%,

The percentage or volume position is meaningless. Nothing is calibrated and signal levels vary and amplifier gain varies, etc. It's possible that you could hit 100W at 50% or you might not reach 100W at 100% (although its unusual that you can't hit maximum power). There is usually enough gain to push the amplifier into clipping.

I felt that the woofer of the speakers hardly moved

With a subwoofer and proper crossover that's perfectly normal. It's the low bass that moves the woofer the most and the bass is being routed to the sub.

the bass from the subwoofer is not full enough even at a fairly high volume

I have not heard that subwoofer and I don't know what your expectations are, but 10-inches is "small" for a subwoofer. (Size isn't everything and bigger isn't always better, but physics come into play and "big things tend to make big bass".)

I assume the subwoofer has its own volume knob. Have you tried turning it up a bit?

I saw that there is little difference in THD numbers and power between the models

Don't worry about distortion specs. You don't normally hear distortion from ANY (non-broken) amplifier (or other electronics) unless you overdrive it into clipping. Speaker distortion is normally WAY worse but you don't near speaker distortion under "normal conditions" either. The distortion is included with the power spec so you know they aren't over-rating the spec by giving the power output at 10% or 50% distortion. (Still, they are often not fully-honest about the power!)

 

[Duke]

If your speakers are "4 ohms" and their voltage sensitivity is "85 dB/2.83 volts", then their 1-watt efficiency will be 3 dB less, or 82 dB, because 2.83 volts into 4 ohms = 2 watts.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, you are heading into Home Theater (HT) territory, which isn't my thing but I have a few thoughts.

Those speakers are not especially difficult, and you have plenty of power.
It's not clear how far you sit from your speakers, but achieving 80dB SPL doesn't seem tricky. There's a handy calculator on the Crown Audio site that indicates power requirements.

I'm wondering if you have expectations of bass delivery (HT uses often do) and your sub isn't integrated properly. Unfortunately, that's not something I know enough about.

You've moved from a soundbar system - essentially surround sound, likely with impressive sounding but uncontrolled bass.

I'd suggest: don't spend more money on Amps ... take a little time to understand your new system.
Measurements will be a big help - get a measurement microphone (umic-1 is standard) and measure your system with and without the sub.
Post your findings here and you will get help.

Your speakers and amp are fine. Your sub may not be integrated properly. You may prefer the 'old' sound and need to adjust to the new.

Good luck

 

[voodooless]

It sound like you just don’t like your speakers. Don’t blame the amps. Sometimes sounding good in a showroom doesn’t have to sound good at home.

 

[Ma-ik]

Hi, you are heading into Home Theater (HT) territory, which isn't my thing but I have a few thoughts.

Those speakers are not especially difficult, and you have plenty of power.
It's not clear how far you sit from your speakers, but achieving 80dB SPL doesn't seem tricky. There's a handy calculator on the Crown Audio site that indicates power requirements.

I'm wondering if you have expectations of bass delivery (HT uses often do) and your sub isn't integrated properly. Unfortunately, that's not something I know enough about.

You've moved from a soundbar system - essentially surround sound, likely with impressive sounding but uncontrolled bass.

I'd suggest: don't spend more money on Amps ... take a little time to understand your new system.
Measurements will be a big help - get a measurement microphone (umic-1 is standard) and measure your system with and without the sub.
Post your findings here and you will get help.

Your speakers and amp are fine. Your sub may not be integrated properly. You may prefer the 'old' sound and need to adjust to the new.

Good luck

Actually this set up is for music only, I sit about 3 meters from the speakers..yes each of them individually is fine, but together maybe not
Regarding the subwoofer, yes it is very possible that it is not well blended into the system or that the fact that this subwoofer is sealed and sounds strange to me after years with an ported subwoofer, but the speakers I can definitely notice that their sound is distorted..I could live with this sub if the speakers didn't sound like that, the funny thing is when I turn off the ypao most of their sound gets better. at the moment I prefer to avoid getting too involved in measurements Thanks for the advice

Your amplifier is rated for 100W at 4-Ohms and your speakers rated for 200W maximum. Double the power is +3dB louder. That's "noticeable" but not "significantly louder" and you might not notice a 3dB difference from one day to the next. (+6dB is 4 times the power and +10dB is 10 times the power.)

If you want to experiment with "exact" dB changes to get a feel for it, Audacity can do that. But since most digital files are normalized/maximized, start with an "amplification" (attenuation) of -3dB, or some other attenuation.


The percentage or volume position is meaningless. Nothing is calibrated and signal levels vary and amplifier gain varies, etc. It's possible that you could hit 100W at 50% or you might not reach 100W at 100% (although its unusual that you can't hit maximum power). There is usually enough gain to push the amplifier into clipping.


With a subwoofer and proper crossover that's perfectly normal. It's the low bass that moves the woofer the most and the bass is being routed to the sub.


I have not heard that subwoofer and I don't know what your expectations are, but 10-inches is "small" for a subwoofer. (Size isn't everything and bigger isn't always better, but physics come into play and "big things tend to make big bass".)

I assume the subwoofer has its own volume knob. Have you tried turning it up a bit?


Don't worry about distortion specs. You don't normally hear distortion from ANY (non-broken) amplifier (or other electronics) unless you overdrive it into clipping. Speaker distortion is normally WAY worse but you don't near speaker distortion under "normal conditions" either. The distortion is included with the power spec so you know they aren't over-rating the spec by giving the power output at 10% or 50% distortion. (Still, they are often not fully-honest about the power!)

You are talking about an amplifier that is no longer with me, I currently have the r-n800 and not the ta-1, maybe it won't be louder but maybe it will be cleaner when I have spares of power in the amp? Even if it's a 400watt power amplifier it won't improve the result in your opinion?? According to what I understood, more power in the amplifier is not necessarily louder, but cleaner without clipping. Yes, I played with the volume of the subwoofer and I was able to stabilize it to a normal sound, the problem was the speakers, the ypao after measuring chose a crossover 40hz which I also found strange. However, I tried the 60hz, 80hz and 90hz settings and in fact at 40hz it really sounded better. And the subwoofer is a sealed 12 inch

 

[Ma-ik]

If your speakers are "4 ohms" and their voltage sensitivity is "85 dB/2.83 volts", then their 1-watt efficiency will be 3 dB less, or 82 dB, because 2.83 volts into 4 ohms = 2 watts.

Forgive my ignorance, I'm weak with these numbers, but are you actually saying that I'm already at 80db volume already in my current set up?
can you tell me in simple language, how much power in the amplifier do I need to get absolutely clean 75db at 3 meter distance and I won't have to increase the amplifier volume beyond half?

 

[JeremyFife]

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English (US)

www.crownaudio.com

23W

That's to get 80dB SPL and calling your speaker sensitivity 82dB

Your problem is not amplification.

 

[Ma-ik]

Your amplifier is rated for 100W at 4-Ohms and your speakers rated for 200W maximum. Double the power is +3dB louder. That's "noticeable" but not "significantly louder" and you might not notice a 3dB difference from one day to the next. (+6dB is 4 times the power and +10dB is 10 times the power.)

If you want to experiment with "exact" dB changes to get a feel for it, Audacity can do that. But since most digital files are normalized/maximized, start with an "amplification" (attenuation) of -3dB, or some other attenuation.


The percentage or volume position is meaningless. Nothing is calibrated and signal levels vary and amplifier gain varies, etc. It's possible that you could hit 100W at 50% or you might not reach 100W at 100% (although its unusual that you can't hit maximum power). There is usually enough gain to push the amplifier into clipping.


With a subwoofer and proper crossover that's perfectly normal. It's the low bass that moves the woofer the most and the bass is being routed to the sub.


I have not heard that subwoofer and I don't know what your expectations are, but 10-inches is "small" for a subwoofer. (Size isn't everything and bigger isn't always better, but physics come into play and "big things tend to make big bass".)

I assume the subwoofer has its own volume knob. Have you tried turning it up a bit?


Don't worry about distortion specs. You don't normally hear distortion from ANY (non-broken) amplifier (or other electronics) unless you overdrive it into clipping. Speaker distortion is normally WAY worse but you don't near speaker distortion under "normal conditions" either. The distortion is included with the power spec so you know they aren't over-rating the spec by giving the power output at 10% or 50% distortion. (Still, they are often not fully-honest about the power!)

Forgive me, maybe I'm confusing the term distortion and clipping, I mean clipping...how can you know that I don't reach clipping in my amplifier at 80 percent volume with my speakers load?

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English (US)

www.crownaudio.com

23W

That's to get 80dB SPL and calling your speaker sensitivity 82dB

Your problem is not amplification.

I'm ordering a ported sub soon, I'll be able to test if the new subwoofer integrates better into the system
about the statement that I'm not used to the sound, I don't deny it buy still it's not possible that the sound of these speakers sounds like that, it doesn't make sense to me..
I bet my soul if these speakers get what they need they sing like crazy..

 

[Ma-ik]

Yamaha's receivers usually have eco mode and 4 or 8 ohm impedance switch in the menu. As I understand those "features" cut the available power to keep the temps down. Audioholics says that no matter the speaker impedance the switch should always be set at 8 ohms. Did you change the switch? Before changing anything, what do people here think?

I changed for a very short time, there was no change in my opinion, and even worse
I set it back to normal..
I don't want to be so quick to draw conclusions about this model, but I feel that Yamaha went in the more convenient side and less efficient direction with this model, I hope I'm wrong

 

[Doodski]

Yamaha's receivers usually have eco mode and 4 or 8 ohm impedance switch in the menu. As I understand those "features" cut the available power to keep the temps down. Audioholics says that no matter the speaker impedance the switch should always be set at 8 ohms. Did you change the switch? Before changing anything, what do people here think?

I think one should include a disclaimer if recommending that a amp be run in 8 Ohm mode with ~4 Ohm speakers. If it gets fried who is responsible? The owner is...

 

[Duke]

Forgive my ignorance, I'm weak with these numbers, but are you actually saying that I'm already at 80db volume already in my current set up?

No, what I'm saying is that your speakers are about 3 dB less efficient than you may have assumed.

can you tell me in simple language, how much power in the amplifier do I need to get absolutely clean 75db at 3 meter distance and I won't have to increase the amplifier volume beyond half?

In simple language? Two hundred watts, and even then I would hesitate to guarantee "absolutely clean".

It's not the "75 dB @ 3 meters" that is so demanding. It is the PEAKS in the music that are so demanding. A brief 20 dB peak (which would be 95 dB) calls for 100 times more power.

 

[Ma-ik]

No, what I'm saying is that your speakers are about 3 dB less efficient than you may have assumed.



In simple language? Two hundred watts, and even then I would hesitate to guarantee "absolutely clean".

It's not the "75 dB @ 3 meters" that is so demanding. It is the PEAKS in the music that are so demanding. A brief 20 dB peak (which would be 95 dB) calls for 100 times more power.

Thank you my friend for a clear answer
״It is the PEAKS in the music that are so demanding״ - Especially when the music is 90's style rave electronic I guess (lot of low frequencies peaks)

Would something like schiit vidar 2 guarantee me comfort for the next few years in your opinion? (along with a good source of course) Or should I aim higher to be safe? Because if so I will have to give up here, my budget is unfortunately limited..
What about VTV class D Hypex NC502MP same question..? 500Wx2 in 4ohm
I mean I listen at pretty low volume , I won't be able to get decent result with 500 watts? It might not be perfect but it will sound better than now don't you think?

 

[Doodski]

Didn't I?

You kind of touched the surface but not a disclaimer. If advising people to use the 8 Ohms setting on 4 Ohms speakers you should advise them that there is a chance something might happen as in a catastrophic event. That way they commit to it and you are not responsible if there is a component failure or a baked PCB etc. Over a extended time period the high heat of specific components will damage the PCB and maybe even fry the amp. This will not show up by metering the case temp. Not nagging you but am saying be careful.

 

[Chagall]

You kind of touched the surface but not a disclaimer. If advising people to use the 8 Ohms setting on 4 Ohms speakers you should advise them that there is a chance something might happen as in a catastrophic event. That way they commit to it and you are not responsible if there is a component failure or a baked PCB etc. Over a extended time period the high heat of specific components will damage the PCB and maybe even fry the amp. This will not show up by metering the case temp. Not nagging you but am saying be careful.

Oh jeez! I'll just delete my post. Don't care much for drama.

 

[Duke]

Would something like schiit vidar 2 guarantee me comfort for the next few years in your opinion? (along with a good source of course) Or should I aim higher to be safe? Because if so I will have to give up here, my budget is unfortunately limited..
What about VTV class D Hypex NC502MP same question..?

I don't feel qualified to make specific amplifier recommendations for speaker-and-amp combinations that I'm not familiar with because the "real world" can be more demanding than one expects.

 

[DVDdoug]

the fact that this subwoofer is sealed and sounds strange to me after years with an ported subwoofer,

There are "tendencies" with sealed & ported speakers but no definite "sound character". Both can sound good. There are trade-offs with all speaker designs. Sealed speakers tend to have smoother frequency response and they tend to start rolling-off at a higher frequency, but with a more more gradual roll off. Somebody posted a graph here. Ported speakers tend to put-out more bass overall, but with EQ/DSP (usually built-into active subs) and enough amplifier power you can overcome the "weakness" of sealed speakers and get more deep bass.

Even if it's a 400watt power amplifier it won't improve the result in your opinion??

With speakers rated at 200W you risk burning them out!!! Ignoring that, and assuming you are not clipping the current amplifier, 400W is 6dB louder than 100W.

As you push an amplifier into clipping, the average power goes up. Just the peaks are clipped/limited. It gets louder and if you are over-driving an amplifier "matched" to the speakers you risk damaging the speakers. Speakers are rated for use with an amplifier of the same power rating that's hitting maximum power only on the program peaks. Of course that's "statistical" and a 200W speaker will probably be OK with a very-occasional 400W peak.

On the other hand, you can burn-out a 100W speaker with constant test tones from a 100W amplifier. And the tweeter can't handle as much power as the woofer.

According to what I understood, more power in the amplifier is not necessarily louder, but cleaner without clipping.

It will only be "cleaner" if the lower-power amplifier is clipping. A 100W amplifier and a 1000W watt amplifier are the same if they are both hitting 100W (or less) on the peaks.

how can you know that I don't reach clipping in my amplifier at 80 percent volume with my speakers load?

Have you ever turned-up your TV (or small radio, etc.) until you hear distortion. That's clipping. (Or you might hear the speaker buzzing or something like that.) You may not notice 3dB or 6dB of occasional clipping or you may only hear it on the loudest peaks, etc.

Or, that's another experiment you can do with Audacity - Set the Amplify effect to "allow clipping", then set New Peak Amplitude to +6dB (or whatever you want). Then export as a regular 16 or 24-bit WAV file and you'll have a clipped file. Audacity itself can go over 0dB but regular wave files are hard-limited to 0dBFS* and they will clip. if you "try" to go over.

An over-driven speaker may have different "kinds" of distortion.

the ypao after measuring chose a crossover 40hz which I also found strange. However, I tried the 60hz, 80hz and 90hz settings and in fact at 40hz it really sounded better.

I can't argue with what you're hearing but it's hard to believe you can get significant 40Hz output from the tiny woofer in your main speakers. It MIGHT put-out 40Hz but as you turn it up, it's probably going to distort.

BTW - With most music, there isn't much below 40Hz. The lowest note on a standard bass guitar is about 40Hz. The kick-drum might go lower. A 5-string bass goes lower, organs can go lower. Pianos actually go lower, but there's not really much energy in the lowest range (you can't normally feal the bass from an acoustic piano). Effects in movies can go below 40Hz. Large "pro" subwoofers used live and in dance clubs are usually ported and "tuned" to go down to around 40Hz. It's a compromise makes it easier to fill a large venue with bass you can feel in your body.

* 0dBFS (zero decibels full scale) is the "digital maximum" so digital dB levels are normally negative. 0dB SPL (sound pressure level) is approximately the quietest sound humans can hear so SPL levels are normally positive. There is no automatic calibration but there is a direct correlation. If you lower the digital level by -3dB (a bigger negative number) the SPL level also goes down by 3dB.

 

[Doodski]

Oh jeez! I'll just delete my post. Don't care much for drama.

It's not drama. It is taking proper care and attention to the details of possible overheating components in a amp that won't fail right away and may require years to fail. That's why the manufacturers advise there are conditions in the operation of ~8 Ohm versus ~4 Ohm speakers. I'm just saying if you are going to make claims about the long term reliability when operating 4 Ohms speakers on the 8 Ohms setting you should advise the people coming here for help that if they run the 8 Ohm setting that there may be a issue years down the road.

 

[Ma-ik]

It sound like you just don’t like your speakers. Don’t blame the amps. Sometimes sounding good in a showroom doesn’t have to sound good at home.

I don't disagree with you, and maybe it's hard for you to believe, but it's also possible that this amp is less good than its predecessors...
Have you tried this new series? Have you seen measurements of this model specifically? believe me I'm the first to be happy to find out I'm wrong
I've seen a lot of claims about limiting power at 4 ohms with the r-n600 model... so overall it's not that far from reality.

 

[Ma-ik]

I don't disagree with you, and maybe it's hard for you to believe, but it's also possible that this amp is less good than its predecessors...
Have you tried this new series? Have you seen measurements of this model specifically? believe me I'm the first to be happy to find out I'm wrong
I've seen a lot of claims about limiting power at 4 ohms with the r-n600 model... so overall it's not that far from reality.

test of the higher class model in this series R-N2000A

my model is a quarter of the price of this model, I don't believe it will get close to that power