Even the logo has three humps.33000€ multiway but with very W-avy response:
Source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher-stereo/soundspace-systems-robin-21275
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Worst measuring loudspeaker?
- Thread starter Purité Audio
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #202
Perhaps while not the worst, but £20k for a pair of standmounts,
www.hifinews.com
Keith
AVID Reference Four Loudspeaker Lab Report
Lab Report While most of the 'reactive action' takes place through the bass (sub-200Hz) with swings in phase angle of –54°/79Hz and +46°/55Hz (all >15ohm), the Reference Four's minimum impedance is an 'easy' 6.3ohm/168Hz. Beyond this the modulus continues to rise, reaching 8ohm at 415Hz and...
www.hifinews.com
Keith
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That's actually way above average for Hi-Fi News measurements, which for some reason are almost always more ragged than measurements on other sites.Perhaps while not the worst, but £20k for a pair of standmounts,
AVID Reference Four Loudspeaker Lab Report
Lab Report While most of the 'reactive action' takes place through the bass (sub-200Hz) with swings in phase angle of –54°/79Hz and +46°/55Hz (all >15ohm), the Reference Four's minimum impedance is an 'easy' 6.3ohm/168Hz. Beyond this the modulus continues to rise, reaching 8ohm at 415Hz and...
Keith
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Another fresh one, 3800€ compact passive speaker with an almost 10 dB step at the very audible mid region
Source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher-stereo/starke-sound-ic-h1-elite-21337
Source: https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher-stereo/starke-sound-ic-h1-elite-21337
OP
- Thread Starter
- #205
Very poor, especially if you compare to the $600 a pair Vanatoo Amir has just measured .
Keith
Keith
This measurement at 7 feet does not seem to mean much. The BandW has more treble-- too much most likely. But the wild ups and downs lower down seem largely room induced. I think if you put a perfect speaker(whatever that would be) in that spot you would still get a weird graph.
Robert G
Robert G
OP
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- #208
Good to see the UK once again leading the field,
www.stereophile.com
Keith
Tannoy Stirling Prestige Gold Reference loudspeaker Measurements
Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system, a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone, and an Earthworks microphone preamplifier to measure the Tannoy Stirling Prestige Gold Reference's frequency response in the farfield. I used an Earthworks QTC40 mike for the nearfield responses and Dayton...
www.stereophile.com
Keith
OP
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- #209
£65k of ‘bright’.
Keith
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£65k of ‘bright’.
Keith
Also identified in the subjective part of the review, along with it's affect on music played through the speakers. (Which is one reason I still value the "What It Sounds Like" subjective parts of many reviews).
OP
- Thread Starter
- #211
If you understand the measurements you can rule these out straightaway without the kerfuffle of an audition.
Keith
Keith
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And if you understand the subjective description, you can skip the kerfuffle of the measurements
OP
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- #213
Subjective comment has no meaning whatsoever it is useless.
Keith
Keith
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For someone who decides they have no use. You'll get the same attitude from some subjectivists about measurements.
Any tool can be rendered "useless" simply by the attitude of someone who rejects it.
And, as I've pointed out many times before, you would get nowhere in the real world of creative sound production if you seriously held to the claim that "subjective comment (about sound character) has no meaning whatsoever." You'd be looking for another job pretty quickly.
We just did a playback of a show I worked on (sound design), where we put finishing touches on the sound based on producer/director feedback in the mix. Do you think anyone is communicating information about the sound by measurements? Nope. One sound they didn't care for, described it's character, then they described the character of the sound they wanted. I understood from their description what type of sound they wanted, produced it, and it was just what they described and they were happy. We are constantly, successfully working via a feedback of subjective commentary on sound...the sound heard from the speakers!...and everyone would be rightly taken aback if I one day objected "sorry, I find subjective commentary on sound meaningless and useless, you'll have to put your descriptions in to measurements please." Really? There's the door. Bye-bye. We'll get someone in here who understands how to use the tools of subjective description.
Apparently some here imagine a line where subjective comment on the character of sound suddenly becomes utterly "meaningless and useless" once it enters the magic bubble of hi-fi gear. Sonic descriptions often work fine elsewhere in much of life...but it mysteriously goes "poof" once one enters the hi-fi salon. It's very strange. (As I've argued "less than scientifically reliable" does not automatically equate to "wholly unreliable/meaningless/useless").
But we've been here before....
OP
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- #215
Subjectivity is only pertinent to that individual for everyone else totally useless , measurements on the other hand…
Keith
Keith
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Again...I can only presume you haven't worked in sound production. That is falsified in the real world - which you just ignored from my post above.
In sound production we are identifying sound character, and sound problems, via our subjective perception and this is successful BECAUSE it ports quite well to the perception of other people. If a dialogue track comes in that is too "muddy" or "muffled" sounding affecting intelligibility, we identify that SUBJECTIVELY and reference that with SUBJECTIVE descriptions BECAUSE we know it will have a similar SUBJECTIVE IMPRESSION on the listening audience. That's why every single production dialogue track is judged for it's sound quality/intelligibility etc, where we decide what steps to improve or replace it. If subjective perception and description really had meaning only to an individual and didn't port to others, what we do every day would literally be impossible.
The whole point of our descriptive language...about anything...is the fact we can indeed pass information to one another this way, since we share many perceptions.
As I say, I really find some to be "reasoning in a bubble" on these issues sometimes.
...can suffer from the same critique.
The end point of any audio gear will be the subjective impressions on the listener. That's the point of caring about measurements in the first place, right?
You can't have it both ways. If measurements are reliable enough to predict how something will sound to people - e.g. "bright" - then this only works insofar as our sonic impressions are reliable enough to perceive similar impressions! Otherwise...the measurements would be useless in predicting the sound!
If people are going to hear that measurement as what we can subjectively term "brightness" then it's legitimate to communicate about the sound in that manner. A listener subjectively perceiving this "brightness" can predict to some degree that someone else listening carefully could hear it too.
Is there noise in this subjective system? Of course! But to the degree that people's perception of "brightness" may vary...the SAME problem attends extrapolation from the measurements! Appealing to measurements does not "poof" the problem of subjective perception away, given subjective perception is the end result.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #217
You write so much but say so very little, loudspeaker measurements Matt loudspeaker measurements.
Keith
Keith
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Ok, shorter:
In the real world, we all listen to our systems in sighted conditions right?
So, can you explain how the measurements help predict, to any useful degree, what we will hear from that speaker in sighted conditions?
Can you explain this without making my point for me? ;-)
If it turns out the measurements are "useless" for predicting the sound under the conditions we'll actually be listening...why should any audiophile care about the measurements, again?
(And if anyone reading those questions infers that I'm arguing measurements are useless...you'd be wrong and missing my point).
If you are seriously arguing that it is impossible to communicate effectively about sonics in an audio production environment using verbal language, then aren't you just arguing for some variety of willful autism?
This is a re-hash of the "warm" thread where some insisted it was impossible to assign useful meaning to commonly used idioms because said meanings depended on context. As if humans aren't aware of immediate context in a working environment, and correlate language accordingly, etc.
The issue of veracity of subjective descriptions of sonics in a wider context is somewhat orthogonal: a reviewer promoting an advertiser's project (for example) is a hagiographic context, so we discount appropriately. The assertion that verbal communication of sonic characteristics isn't possible is at least as extreme as that.
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Such a treble boost can be a clever choice for their typical target group of old men
£65k of ‘bright’.
Keith
Fig.6 Estelon XB Diamond Mk.2, spatially averaged, 1/10-octave response (red), and of Wilson Alexx V (blue), in JCA's listening room.
Even the good and diplomatic JA mentions it in its conclusion:
The Estelon XB Diamond Mk II's measured performance is very good overall, though that excess of mid-treble energy may complicate setup and system optimization.—John Atkinson
It must be said though it can be equalised quite well as its (wide) directivity is quite smooth:
Source of all above measurements: https://www.stereophile.com/content/estelon-xb-diamond-mk2-loudspeaker-measurementsf
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