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Why is audio so angry?

Thomas savage

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So does this mean you are at a vulnerable time when Amir could hire you for permanent moderator? Would you consider moving to the states? Amir has that camper van so living accommodations would be available and very inexpensive. Amir needs to stay out of it and do more testing anyway.

If the woman isn't amenable to moving to the US, they have some very nice women in the Pacific Northwest.
I'm free but @amirm has gone to great lengths to make sure there's no men living near him that are more attractive than he is (was, before time mocked him so cruelly) so I can't see him being willing to allow me permanent lodgings. He would be over come with fits of jealous rage on a daily basis and testing would come to a complete standstill.

I thought I'd look into moving to @watchnerd neck of the woods and declare myself a professional Cat walker , I'd at least have one client.
 

Krunok

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I'm free but @amirm has gone to great lengths to make sure there's no men living near him that are more attractive than he is (was, before time mocked him so cruelly) so I can't see him being willing to allow me permanent lodgings. He would be over come with fits of jealous rage on a daily basis and testing would come to a complete standstill.

I thought I'd look into moving to @watchnerd neck of the woods and declare myself a professional Cat walker , I'd at least have one client.
Huh.. Cat walking?!? I don't think you'll get many customers in that line of business.. :eek: :facepalm:
 

Wombat

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I don't see audio as angry but some individuals seem to be so. ;)
 

Shadrach

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Lots of audiophiles take audio reproduction far too seriously. It stretches into both subjectivist and objectivist camps.
It's hard not to laugh between the I know what I hear crowd and I know what I'm talking about crowd; neither are right and both terms are constraining and largely inaccurate.
In the end it is about what you hear and to make a fair assessment of this you need a fair trial.
 

Krunok

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Lots of audiophiles take audio reproduction far too seriously. It stretches into both subjectivist and objectivist camps.
It's hard not to laugh between the I know what I hear crowd and I know what I'm talking about crowd; neither are right and both terms are constraining and largely inaccurate.
In the end it is about what you hear and to make a fair assessment of this you need a fair trial.
I think there are still some unknown things when it comes to speakers/headphones but with electronics objectivists do know what they are talking about.
 

egellings

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TBR's and GESRs--Test bench reviewers and golden-eared subjective reviewers will mostly never agree on anything audio. It's kind of like evolutionists vs. creationists. They will not agree on origins, ever. Knowledge tends to be editable; beliefs not s much.
 

TimF

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Cozumel Island, Mexico: thousands and thousands of motor scooters and and motorcycles of relatively small engines. Very, very few have any modifications or aftermarket styling changes to make them special or unique in any way. Many of them apparently aren't washed or cleaned often if at all. The scooters and cycles are for the citizens of the island tools and only tools. It is a culture where male preening and individuation/exceptionalism via outward display is frowned on and not respected. Imagine that, tools as tools and not as vehicles for self aggrandizement and self-inflation. I imagine that on the Island males are respected for support and loyalty to their immediate and extended families.
 

Sal1950

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Cozumel Island, Mexico
A beautiful place to go scuba and snorkeling I've heard.
It is a culture where male preening and individuation/exceptionalism via outward display is frowned on and not respected. Imagine that, tools as tools and not as vehicles for self aggrandizement and self-inflation. I imagine that on the Island males are respected for support and loyalty to their immediate and extended families.
As to the rest of your post, I haven't a clue as to why you posted that here ????
 

Blujackaal

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TBR's and GESRs--Test bench reviewers and golden-eared subjective reviewers will mostly never agree on anything audio. It's kind of like evolutionists vs. creationists. They will not agree on origins, ever. Knowledge tends to be editable; beliefs not s much.
Sums up the whole EQ is not natural that the subjective side droned on about. Because with a PEQ you can EQ in different frequency responces of other headphones/speakers. Instead of wasting money on 20 headphones for a sound that 3 headphones could do with EQ or refusing to fix the FR with EQ.
 

solderdude

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Because with a PEQ you can EQ in different frequency responces of other headphones/speakers. Instead of wasting money on 20 headphones for a sound that 3 headphones could do with EQ or refusing to fix the FR with EQ.
Hard to emulate comfort, weight, driver angles, driver-ear distances, seal, and other driver aspects than FR (tonality) using just EQ.
 

raistlin65

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Some people are happy for weird reasons (let’s put that in the subjectivist bucket) and some people are happy for provable reasons (objectivist bucket). But why the endless threads about it?

Why so much passion?
Maybe this has been said already, but I'll say it again.

Off and on, for a decade or more, I've been involved in helping with audio equipment recommendations for newbies on various audio forums. And time and time again, subjectivists will join in threads and try to convince people, who often don't have a lot of disposable income, to spend money on equipment that offers little or no sonic benefits.

And it's not just the consumers. AVR manufacturers still tell people how to "bi-amp" their speakers even though it serves little or no purpose, and the speaker manufacturers provide dual binding posts so that you can engage in that practice. You have successful manufacturers like Audioquest who capitalize on expectation bias to sell equipment that sonically provides little or no benefit. Best Buy and other stores are happy to convince you that you need that more expensive cable (when you don't). Then there are Bose speakers (lol). And you have an industry which could provide extensive measurements of their amps and DACs, but who instead rely on untenable marketing claims and uncritical reviewers to sell their products.

So to a certain extent, many of us are motivated by a consumer watchdog mentality who are concerned with the snake oil and misleading practices in the hobby. When you think about it, objectivism is good for the hobby overall when people with limited budgets can maximize their listening experience by making good choices about their equipment.
 

Blujackaal

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So to a certain extent, many of us are motivated by a consumer watchdog mentality who are concerned with the snake oil and misleading practices in the hobby. When you think about it, objectivism is good for the hobby overall when people with limited budgets can maximize their listening experience by making good choices about their equipment.
The IEM industry full of a lot of misinfomation and woo. Like people lapping up multi driver set ups that still lose to a well tuned single driver version. EG; ER3XR, EX1000 & more.
 

StevenEleven

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Maybe this has been said already, but I'll say it again.

Off and on, for a decade or more, I've been involved in helping with audio equipment recommendations for newbies on various audio forums. And time and time again, subjectivists will join in threads and try to convince people, who often don't have a lot of disposable income, to spend money on equipment that offers little or no sonic benefits.

And it's not just the consumers. AVR manufacturers still tell people how to "bi-amp" their speakers even though it serves little or no purpose, and the speaker manufacturers provide dual binding posts so that you can engage in that practice. You have successful manufacturers like Audioquest who capitalize on expectation bias to sell equipment that sonically provides little or no benefit. Best Buy and other stores are happy to convince you that you need that more expensive cable (when you don't). Then there are Bose speakers (lol). And you have an industry which could provide extensive measurements of their amps and DACs, but who instead rely on untenable marketing claims and uncritical reviewers to sell their products.

So to a certain extent, many of us are motivated by a consumer watchdog mentality who are concerned with the snake oil and misleading practices in the hobby. When you think about it, objectivism is good for the hobby overall when people with limited budgets can maximize their listening experience by making good choices about their equipment.
I understand the extra concern for people with limited budgets. But I’d add that even people with unlimited budgets have a hard time making solid decisions in the current consumer audio environment.

I feel motivated to limit the revenue that goes into the pockets of the shysters and clowns of the audio industry (in some cases this may include companies like Sony, or Yamaha, or Marantz, not just isolated fraudsters), and to provide the audio industry incentive to put out cost-efficient, safe, reliable products. I am hopeful that this forum moves the needle, however little it may be (and hopefully in the long run it may be more than just a little), in that direction.

One way to do that is the public embarrassment, loss of public esteem and loss of sales that go with calling out bad products, bad companies, and bad actors. I want to see them called out by name, with proof, and unambiguously. Yes, there is a touch of anger in me wanting to see that. And inducing a little generalized anxiety among folks who could easily do better by their customers is a good thing too. A little satirical humor aimed in that direction is not so bad either. In one sense, it’s a mission to shift the balance of power back in the direction of consumers, to at least some small degree.

Another way to do that is to hold out good products for special praise. I think it’s going to take both.
 
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Blujackaal

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I understand the extra concern for people with limited budgets. But I’d add that even people with unlimited budgets have a hard time making solid decisions in the current consumer audio environment.

I feel motivated to limit the revenue that goes into the pockets of the shysters and clowns of the audio industry, and to provide the audio industry incentive to put out cost-efficient, safe, reliable products. I am hopeful that this forum moves the needle, however little it may be (and hopefully in the long run it may be more than just a little), in that direction.

One way to do that is the public embarrassment, loss of public esteem and loss of sales that go with calling out bad products, bad companies, and bad actors. I want to see them called out by name, with proof, and unambiguously. Yes, there is a touch of anger in me wanting to see that. And inducing a little generalized anxiety among folks who could easily do better by their customers is a good thing too. A little satirical humor aimed in that direction is not so bad either,

Another way to do that is to hold out good products for special praise. I think it’s going to take both.
Getting purchise advice is a mess, Going out to demo stuff way better if possible. I remember when Hifiman was alway's people first choice, With quite a few ignoring there beyond bad QC. It dosen't help with reviewers/impressioners who think there subjective opinions are fact, God forbid someone enjoys a High end Grado headphone or stay with mid tier headphone/gear. Also i remember when you couldn't say any negative opinion on Campfire's stuff without meltdowns by a lot of fans?.
 

JohnBooty

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Biggest reasons why audio folks are angry at each other online?

1. Lots of folks have invested serious $$$ in snake-oil products like DACs that either don't offer audible improvements, or fail to outperform inexpensive products. Once you've spent thousands of dollars on something, you have a serious emotional investment in denying the fact that you were fooled.

1a. A lot of people also have an emotional investment in believing that they are "trained" or "superior" listeners who can discern differences where others cannot.

2. Lots of misunderstandings/controversies over how measurements do (or don't) translate into audibility. You see a lot of this on ASR, where everybody is focused on measurements (good, IMO) but we're still struggling to connect them to real-world experiences.
 

stevenswall

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I get angry because:

1. Sometimes people push things that are fantasy, and I don't like cult-adjavent behavior polluting discussion about my hobby since leaving Mormonism.

2. I want to talk about the ideal, and I'm frustrated when people and companies constantly push things that don't even attempt to solve known issues.

3. There are too many people who peddle the latest thing they purchased, or the newest thing sent to review... and I feel my opinion is significantly more valid because I return about 5-10x the number of things compared to what I keep when it comes to headphones, speakers, shoes, pants, and polos.

4. I want the best, and related to number 3, people are telling me about things that aren't the best, and I'm a maximizer, so there isn't as wide of an "acceptable range of things I can afford." There is simply "the best thing I can afford" and "a waste of money" for the most part.

5. Some people encourage new users to spend money on things that don't make a difference, or as much of a difference, and it wastes people's money and supports companies I'd rather push towards lean times so they adapt and improve rather than riding a popularity wave and continuing to not push the envelope.
 

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