why do 7" drivers have better soundstage and presence than 5" drivers ?

[amanieux]

not even valid on the F5 vs F7 also IMO, when tonality being this different, it can be one set is broken, have some sort of EQ switch enabled or soft EQ to make the comparison more pronounced, or just one hit some kind of room mode in that particular scenario.. so many variables can make it like that.

I recently just found the same situation where a friend with a properly treated room, a pair of BBC LS3/5A speaker sounded quite good there, then another guy borrowed what pair he thought have gorgeous soundstange, back to his home and bedroom it instantly becomes Meh, such cases are all over the place.

in the comments the creator of the video were so surprised that they got a second pair of f5 to make they did not had a lemon f5

 

[thewas]

in the comments the creator of the video were so surprised that they got a second pair of f5 to make they did not had a lemon f5

By the way the electronics of the ADAM F5 and F7 were designed by a very knowledgeable ASR member ( @KSTR ), maybe he can give more interesting insights to this topic like the below ones:

Adam A5X Review (Powered Studio Monitor)

Silly thought, but it looks like they tried to "tune out" the resonance via DSP crossover and missed by 0,1 kHz. Other Adam models seem to be better at least in value for money terms: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?search/24168177/&q=Adam+review&c[title_only]=1&o=relevance

www.audiosciencereview.com

Hiss List (S&R)

Lots of discussion about hiss lately, how perceptible or annoying it is, and if it matters. I've created a sheet with Sound & Recording measurements of hiss in active loudspeakers: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n62hGAdKptSSKC74_fIT_R7DxFJ60YR2_O9C8x-vYQI/edit?usp=sharing Viewers can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Hiss List (S&R)

What's the background noise level in your environment? I can hear mine at 1m. But it is the quietest I have heard also. Very high in the bass, but sloping towards single digit SPL in the kHz region. I live in a condo next to a highway and construction. If you're using the same 100dB setting as...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Performance of Amps in Active Speakers

But out-of-the-box "externally active" seems rare. Bryston is doing it.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[JimA84]

I disagree. The problem is that people botch the crossovers. No one is complaining about the Salon2, for example. A 4-way speaker with LR4 crossovers.

I agree that most people do poor crossovers but LR4 is really pushing the limits of analog technology and is extremely sensitive to driver impedance at the crossover frequency. In addition such complex analog circuits are sensitive to component variations and in some cases ringing or other unintended consequences.

BTW, Linkwitz and I used to debate these issues all the time. I miss him.

And of course the issue of Zobel networks.

If you are going to push it that far it is probably better to use a digital crossover and independent active amplifiers per driver.

I would still argue that John Meyer of Newform Research has the right idea of producing a huge ribbon driver that can handle everything from 1KHz up with a two way crossover and the option of something like a JL sub to cover the lowest two octaves if desired.

 

[JimA84]

I disagree. The problem is that people botch the crossovers. No one is complaining about the Salon2, for example. A 4-way speaker with LR4 crossovers.

I agree that most people do poor crossovers but LR4 is really pushing the limits of analog technology and is extremely sensitive to driver impedance at the crossover frequency. In addition such complex analog circuits are sensitive to component variations and in some cases ringing or other unintended consequences.

BTW, Linkwitz and I used to debate these issues all the time. I miss him.

And of course the issue of Zobel networks.

If you are going to push it that far it is probably better to use a digital crossover and independent active amplifiers per driver.

I would still argue that John Meyer of Newform Research has the right idea of producing a huge ribbon driver that can handle everything from 1KHz up with a two way crossover and the option of something like a JL sub to cover the lowest two octaves if desired.

 

[fpitas]

I agree that most people do poor crossovers but LR4 is really pushing the limits of analog technology and is extremely sensitive to driver impedance at the crossover frequency. In addition such complex analog circuits are sensitive to component variations and in some cases ringing or other unintended consequences.

BTW, Linkwitz and I used to debate these issues all the time. I miss him.

And of course the issue of Zobel networks.

If you are going to push it that far it is probably better to use a digital crossover and independent active amplifiers per driver.

I would still argue that John Meyer of Newform Research has the right idea of producing a huge ribbon driver that can handle everything from 1KHz up with a two way crossover and the option of something like a JL sub to cover the lowest two octaves if desired.

Once again, I think you protest too much. Lots of good designers do just fine with LR4, and even when putting the crossover in supposedly bad places. The Salon2 crosses at 575Hz.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

I agree that most people do poor crossovers but LR4 is really pushing the limits of analog technology and is extremely sensitive to driver impedance at the crossover frequency. In addition such complex analog circuits are sensitive to component variations and in some cases ringing or other unintended consequences.

Really? Why don't you discuss that with Jason Cuadra, George Short, Jeff Joseph or Richard Modaferri? I'm sure that they would be interested in what you have to say.

Jim

 

[fpitas]

Really? Why don't you discuss that with Jason Cuadra, George Short, Jeff Joseph or Richard Modaferri? I'm sure that they would be interested in what you have to say.

Jim

Jeff Bagby usually succeeded in getting LR4 with just a coil and capacitor. It helps to know what you're doing.

 

[Chrispy]

If you have real world experience of listening to two speakers size in the same family of products, please share if you did not experience such difference in soundstage/envelopement in favor of the larger size speaker then it may only be an artefact from microphone positionning or this particular room acoustic that favors sounstage in the 7" vs 5"

Yes, have a few speakers that are families of models. I do generally prefer the larger drivers but wouldn't compare them particularly on soundstage/envelopement.

 

[JimA84]

Once again, I think you protest too much. Lots of good designers do just fine with LR4, and even when putting the crossover in supposedly bad places. The Salon2 crosses at 575Hz.

If you're satisfied with it that's what matters.

In my own experience I have spent a lot of time analyzing high order passive crossovers, Zobel networks and similar things.

I have found that once you get past third order passive crossovers it's largely a matter of diminishing returns because the crossovers themselves start to outweigh the defects in the drivers.

It is roughly analogous to plugging a thousand dollar silver power cord into miles of cheap aluminum transmission lines.

One of my favorite hobbies was trying to create an exotic second or third order crossover and an accompanying Zobel network for a cheap mass market speaker system with decent drivers but a hopeless or nonexistent crossover (capacitor on the tweeter).

What I often found was that creating an adequate passive crossover often cost so much for the components that it was economically impractical.

A significant issue is that it's often difficult to get detailed impedance vs. frequency information about drivers unless you measure it yourself.

Driver impedance can drastically disrupt the performance of a passive crossover designed using published impedance values.

Driver impedance can drastically change with frequency and a few ohms can completely alter the slope and frequency of a passive filter or crossover.

If you don't accurately measure driver impedance at the crossover frequency and at the level of a Zobel network if relevant you run the risk of drastically missing the desired behavior.

There is also the issue of quality control so even if your crossover is perfect for your tested speaker system it may be horrible for the next one off the production line with a different batch of drivers.

 

[JimA84]

Jeff Bagby usually succeeded in getting LR4 with just a coil and capacitor. It helps to know what you're doing.

I used to discuss these issues with Siegfried Linkwitz himself.

 

[fpitas]

I used to discuss these issues with Siegfried Linkwitz himself.

Siegfried was also a staunch fan of LR4.

 

[JimA84]

Siegfried was also a staunch fan of LR4.

Yeah, but only with drivers with stable and predictable impedance. And taking into account for much of his career the alternative of digital crossovers didn't exist.

I used to work in Naval submarine sonar and digital technology was a godsend.

With a sufficiently advnced digital controlled amplifier you can literally drive a transducer to fill in every peak or valley in the responce to produce a perfectly flat response curve.

Unfortunately the cost of the equipment to do this is beyond the budgets of some nations but it is possible.

 

[fpitas]

only with drivers with stable and predictable impedance

I don't understand that. Under what conditions are you seeing the impedance vary greatly? Also, that doesn't invalidate an active system using LR4.

 

[fpitas]

drivers with stable and predictable impedance.

Wait...you mean over frequency? Any modern SIM program accounts for that.

 

[Salt]

It's everything said in the beginning.
And then the apple was torn from the tree and discomfort overwhelmed afterwards...

 

[fineMen]

If you're satisfied with it that's what matters.

Sure, a not-so-good driver might alter impedance for example with excursion, inductance, the basic resonance in the Thiele/Small model and what have you. These are trivialities. They'll lead to what I would call--according to common terminology of knowledgible people, simply intermodulation.

Your claims would boil down to saying that a 4th order is more susceptible to such. Where's your data?! Should be easy on a certain level or proficiency. Exceptional claims ask for exceptional evidence. From your side, may I say that? Please feel motivated to support your case yourself.

It started as a weired speculation based on a YT video (click bating) and may finish with floating suspicions against established x/over topologies--which to my very knowledge are never followed by the book. Refering to Siegfried Linkwitz (rip) is the worst part of it, frankly spoken.

 

[fineMen]

Only now I listened to the video. How could it happen to attract so much attention? Actually I feel insulted, sorry to say.

 

[JimA84]

Sure, a not-so-good driver might alter impedance for example with excursion, inductance, the basic resonance in the Thiele/Small model and what have you. These are trivialities. They'll lead to what I would call--according to common terminology of knowledgible people, simply intermodulation.

Your claims would boil down to saying that a 4th order is more susceptible to such. Where's your data?! Should be easy on a certain level or proficiency. Exceptional claims ask for exceptional evidence. From your side, may I say that? Please feel motivated to support your case yourself.

It started as a weired speculation based on a YT video (click bating) and may finish with floating suspicions against established x/over topologies--which to my very knowledge are never followed by the book. Refering to Siegfried Linkwitz (rip) is the worst part of it, frankly spoken.

I have decades of engineering experience and profiency, but I'm not going to spend a week or so digging through old references to engage in a pointless discussion.

As I said, if you are happy with your equipment then it is certainly not my intention to somehow discredit that.

My main point is that high order analog circuits are pushing the limits of the technology and any component that fails to behave as expected can defeat the best of intentions.

 

[fineMen]

I have decades of engineering experience ...

Reiterated, please show some data. Sorry for being maybe harsh. I don't intend to pick on you. But ethereal claims wont do, as you may agree to as an engineer.

(Whilst listening to Alice Cooper's "Field Of Regret", boy ... 'was for teenies in the late 60s, early 70s ... wow!)

 

[JimA84]

I have decades of engineering experience and profiency, but I'm not going to spend a week or so digging through old references to engage in a pointless discussion.

As I said, if you are happy with your equipment then it is certainly not my intention to somehow discredit that.

My main point is that high order analog circuits are pushing the limits of the technology and any component that fails to behave as expected can defeat the best of intentions.

I said that I wasn't going to continue this discussion but what you just posted makes me want to point something out.

It is absurd to waste digital technology to emulate flawed analog technology.

I can produce a digital crossover that transcends LR∞ by numerical approximation.

Of course in that case I would rather use the room full of graphics cards to mine bitcoin.