Why Audiophiles Are Shopping for Vintage Turntables

[sejarzo]

I recall those well. KD-500 was a relatively inexpensive deck made of a concrete resin material.

... Your's probably came with a G-707 arm (I still have one in a drawer). The 707/747 worked well with Sonus (née ADC) because of the latter's high compliance. Blue was rated high among MM cartridges.

...SME was always a standard.

...I never heard a bad Denon MC. The 'D' model always appealed to me.

For reasons I don't know, I never owned a Grado. I ought to correct that.

My first TT was a Philips GA-212 with an ADC XLM cartridge. That arm was sort of a joke. That's why I got the KD-500 with, as you correctly surmised, the G-707 not long after it debuted.

An engineering student friend down the hall in the dorm at Purdue back in the late 70s got me into audio. He had a Linn LP-12, SME 3009 II, and an Ortofon MC with transformer. His "dorm system" used a JE Sugden pre-power amp and JansZen Z410 hybrid electrostatic speakers and an HK Citation tuner, too. Serious stuff for the day! He had the Quad ESL-57s at home. It goes without saying, he had good summer jobs.

He sold me the Sudgens and JansZens then bought some LS3/5as, a reworked early 60s Fisher tube pre (that had a knob to select various LP equalizations) and the Quad tube power amp.) My dad always said he didn't understand how that dorm didn't just float away in the summer when all the audio gear was gone.

My SME was that goofy 3009 Series III with the tray that held silicone fluid and the various sized paddles for adjusting the damping, plus way too much play in the knife edge to remain properly aligned. As J. Gordon Holt noted in Stereophile "it is also one of the most tedious to set-up because, since every parameter is adjustable, every parameter must be adjusted." Fancy way of saying it is a massive PITA, I guess.

I got it when I switched from the Sonus to a DL103D. That cartridge sat in a box for decades before I sold it a year or two ago on eBay to someone who wanted one to rebuilt/retip. The SME likewise was in a box until I discovered Audiogon and sold it maybe 15 years ago for nearly what I had paid for it.

When I got tired of the SME being out of alignment all the time I bought the most inexpensive FR arm, which remained on the table for over 20 years until I traded the rig in for a NAD C320BEE for a second system that's been gone for years now.

The Denon had been in the FR for ages when my Marcof PPA-1 pre-preamp crapped out, which was a number of years into the digital age, so I bought the most inexpensive Grado Signature cartridge available just to have something in the arm that worked. I used the Marcof enclosure to DIY a two input passive volume control with an ALPS Blue Velvet. It's much thicker and heavier than most aluminum project boxes. LOL.

 

[restorer-john]

Right now, as I type there's a 1981, 3 motor quartz locked direct drive, fully automatic Yamaha P-850 on my bench.

I pulled it out of the storeroom where it's been for 20 years and by the end of the day, it'll be playing records once again. It's a sophisticated, computer controlled unit from the period just before CD, where manufacturers filled their TTs with technology.

I rebuilt and restored a cute HK T-35c for Dad the other week from essentially being a parts donor, to now a lovely TT. In the late 90s early 00s, I used to pick up boot-loads of HiFi for a few dollars, often piles of TTs. Stripped most for parts, knowing down the track, those parts would be unobtainium.

So, for me, restoring TTs is fun, especially the myriad issues they present, from cracked nylon parts, missing pieces and often extremely complicated mechanics and electronics.

Here's the P-850 from below, main motor removed for service:

8 pole hall and FG controlled Quartz lock DD motor

One of my turntable parts tubs:

 

[Boris Badinov]

Hollywood seems to have glommed on to this.

The last big fight scene in John Wick 3 has them fighting to Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" played on a turntable.

Did the record skip?

 

[Robin L]

My first TT was a Philips GA-212 with an ADC XLM cartridge. That arm was sort of a joke. That's why I got the KD-500 with, as you correctly surmised, the G-707 not long after it debuted.

An engineering student friend down the hall in the dorm at Purdue back in the late 70s got me into audio. He had a Linn LP-12, SME 3009 II, and an Ortofon MC with transformer. His "dorm system" used a JE Sugden pre-power amp and JansZen Z410 hybrid electrostatic speakers and an HK Citation tuner, too. Serious stuff for the day! He had the Quad ESL-57s at home. It goes without saying, he had good summer jobs.

He sold me the Sudgens and JansZens then bought some LS3/5as, a reworked early 60s Fisher tube pre (that had a knob to select various LP equalizations) and the Quad tube power amp.) My dad always said he didn't understand how that dorm didn't just float away in the summer when all the audio gear was gone.

My SME was that goofy 3009 Series III with the tray that held silicone fluid and the various sized paddles for adjusting the damping, plus way too much play in the knife edge to remain properly aligned. As J. Gordon Holt noted in Stereophile "it is also one of the most tedious to set-up because, since every parameter is adjustable, every parameter must be adjusted." Fancy way of saying it is a massive PITA, I guess.

I got it when I switched from the Sonus to a DL103D. That cartridge sat in a box for decades before I sold it a year or two ago on eBay to someone who wanted one to rebuilt/retip. The SME likewise was in a box until I discovered Audiogon and sold it maybe 15 years ago for nearly what I had paid for it.

When I got tired of the SME being out of alignment all the time I bought the most inexpensive FR arm, which remained on the table for over 20 years until I traded the rig in for a NAD C320BEE for a second system that's been gone for years now.

The Denon had been in the FR for ages when my Marcof PPA-1 pre-preamp crapped out, which was a number of years into the digital age, so I bought the most inexpensive Grado Signature cartridge available just to have something in the arm that worked. I used the Marcof enclosure to DIY a two input passive volume control with an ALPS Blue Velvet. It's much thicker and heavier than most aluminum project boxes. LOL.

The Philips would have been my third or fourth TT. First [and first among equals], the AR XA. That was the correct answer. Properly set up, with a conical-tipped mm tracking around 2.5 g, it could do just about all one really could do with an LP, at least the records produced around the time it appeared. Problem, went out of whack easily if not set up properly. Elliptical cartridges? Not as good as a conical. Pivoted arms, no anti-skating, what would one expect?

But back to that Philips TT. Managed to get everything about suspended subchassis wrong. The motor could get the whole gizmo to oscillate if things weren't set up right and the arm was a joke. Got a second one at a yard sale for $20. Reminded me of everything I hated about it in the first place, sold it as fast as I could. Made a profit on that.

I had a Linn LP-12, Vahalla mods, Ittok arm, AT High-Output MC cartridge, properly set-up. Probably the best I've owned but not good enough to prevent the LP from self-destructing [sonically] 18 minutes in. Nothing does.

My "last" turntable, an early direct-drive semi-automatic Technics SL-D2. Servo, not quartz. Shure m-44-7 cartridges. Did the best job of playing "bad" [clicks/pops/tracking damage] LPs. Useful for needledrops.

 

[Sal1950]

The Denon had been in the FR for ages when my Marcof PPA-1 pre-preamp crapped out,

That's surprising, running on 2 x 9 volt batteries I figured they'd last forever. Bought mine new back in the day and it was still working when I sold off all my vinyl stuff in 2009.

I had a Linn LP-12

If I was ever to get a TT again (never will) it would be strictly for nostalgia so to me that would dictate a Linn LP12. Got to be the most famous audiophile TT in history. In continuous production since 1973, an upgraded copy of the US AR table.
https://www.linn.co.uk/about/our-story

 

[anmpr1]

1) An engineering student ..."dorm system" used a JE Sugden pre-power amp and JansZen Z410 hybrid electrostatic speakers and an HK Citation tuner, too. Serious stuff for the day! He had the Quad ESL-57s at home. It goes without saying, he had good summer jobs.

2) My SME was that goofy 3009 Series III with the tray that held silicone fluid and the various sized paddles for adjusting the damping, plus way too much play in the knife edge to remain properly aligned.

3) The Denon had been in the FR for ages when my Marcof PPA-1 pre-preamp crapped out...

1) You were fortunate to have a sophisticated dorm-mate. Wow.

2) I knew the III had 'set up issues' but never knew it that way. Thanks for the view. Grace used four point (Dual-like) gimbals which is really an optimum design. Except...unlike Dual, Grace horizontal (up and down) bearings were not angled to match the arm's (i.e., headshell) offset angle, which was a design flaw. Also, changing carts on the Grace was a huge PIA. The G-747 with removable headshell was much better, ergonomically. Being the idiot I am, I kept the 707 and sold the 747.

3) Marcof was said to be a design rip-off of Marshall Leach's DIY Audio magazine project. I won't get involved in that controversy. Dr. Leach is gone, and so is Marcof. I have one, and use it occasionally. Marcof made several versions of the pre preamp. All were decent sounding.

 

[anmpr1]

1) That's surprising, running on 2 x 9 volt batteries I figured they'd last forever.

2) If I was ever to get a TT again (never will) it would be strictly for nostalgia so to me that ould dictate a Linn LP12. Got to be the most famous audiophile TT in history. In continuous production since 1973, an upgraded copy of the US AR table.

1) Agree about the Marcof. What could go wrong with it?

2) My guess (without looking) is that a Linn (any Sondek) will not be cheap. And I never understood why Ivor made it so ugly. Compare it to, say, the then contemporary Thorens TD-126 and scratch your head.

 

[Sal1950]

And I never understood why Ivor made it so ugly. Compare it to, say, the then contemporary Thorens TD-126 and scratch your head.

I guess beauty is in the eye as they say. I find the Linn lovely with it's nicely finished wood platform and simple deck. The Thorens looks cobbled together with those big fugly square buttons, etc. ???

 

[MattHooper]

Good Reasons:
1. Some albums on vinyl never made it to CD or downloads, or is very hard to get.

2. Some vinyl has better mastering than available CDs.

Bad Reasons:
I. Some people like certain distortions

II. Some people are not quite sane.

OK Reasons:
A. Some people get bored and like to mess with things

B. Some people like the aesthetics of mechanical contraptions.

^^^ Just a tad solipsistic ;-)

 

[DSJR]

I started to type a post and it became an essay, so best not to. Our UK sensibilities were dominated by the LP12, which happened to make shit 70's vinyl sound rather nicer than it did on a typical solid plinth far eastern direct dive which back then we didn't site well (room size again with then larger speakers?). Some of us now oldies were sucked up in its wake (I sold and set up hundreds of LP12's in my time - still do professionally occasionally - and once thought I was good at it as earlier ones were all different and some were pigs to get right). New parts are silly-expensive as are new samples and not all used parts are good ones (why they're for sale I suspect).

So much more to say but I daren't If some of you want a vintage vinyl player and have vintage vinyl to play on it (forget new pressings by and large as most are bastardised/hobbled from digital masters I gather), go in with eyes very wide open as old decks are just that *old* and will need work after a few decades use!

 

[MattHooper]

How sad, actually having the ease to dodge dodgy tracks from a typical LP. I'm crying. If one wants to hear the Eroica, do you really think one's gonna skip the scherzo? Do you really think most pop albums gain all that much by being played in sequence? Honestly, having greater control over playback options is a flaw? I don't think so.

I don't believe you are giving this feature due consideration.

Generally speaking, in the vinyl days, when we put on record albums we tended to let them play. Especially if they were of a favorite group.
This was often serendipitous for one's music life. It was absolutely routine for me (and I know, many others) to start off with certain tracks in an album as my favorite, but over time to discover how much I liked the tracks I originally didn't care for, and my favorite tracks would evolve over time this way. So many of my favorite tracks started off as ones I would have ignored if I'd been creating playlists at the time.

I can see the difference in action both in how people in myself, people I know, and my family listens to music digitally. My wife never listens to a whole album. Neither do my kids. Even when we'd shared music via itunes purchases or my ripped CDs, the family would just select a song or two or three from an album, the ones they liked immediately, and those were the only ones in rotation in their playlist. Same for streaming. When I'm listening to my ripped CDs, it tends to be only certain tracks. And when I'm streaming I rarely save full albums as favorites; I surf an album and just save the tracks that have immediate intrigue, and skip the rest.

Now that I've been building a vinyl collection I'm listening to whole albums and, just like days of yore, I'm finding myself appreciating tracks differently over time. I end up liking many more songs per album this way. It just feels more holistic, a deeper dive in to the musician's work, vs quickly nabbing a few tracks for a playlist.

To each his own, of course.

 

[levimax]

I don't believe you are giving this feature due consideration.

Generally speaking, in the vinyl days, when we put on record albums we tended to let them play. Especially if they were of a favorite group.
This was often serendipitous for one's music life. It was absolutely routine for me (and I know, many others) to start off with certain tracks in an album as my favorite, but over time to discover how much I liked the tracks I originally didn't care for, and my favorite tracks would evolve over time this way. So many of my favorite tracks started off as ones I would have ignored if I'd been creating playlists at the time.

I can see the difference in action both in how people in myself, people I know, and my family listens to music digitally. My wife never listens to a whole album. Neither do my kids. Even when we'd shared music via itunes purchases or my ripped CDs, the family would just select a song or two or three from an album, the ones they liked immediately, and those were the only ones in rotation in their playlist. Same for streaming. When I'm listening to my ripped CDs, it tends to be only certain tracks. And when I'm streaming I rarely save full albums as favorites; I surf an album and just save the tracks that have immediate intrigue, and skip the rest.

Now that I've been building a vinyl collection I'm listening to whole albums and, just like days of yore, I'm finding myself appreciating tracks differently over time. I end up liking many more songs per album this way. It just feels more holistic, a deeper dive in to the musician's work, vs quickly nabbing a few tracks for a playlist.

To each his own, of course.

I agree with this.... as flawed as LP's are their limitations had some positive consequences for music. In addition to not skipping tracks, a "side" @ 15 to 20 min is a nice duration for listening and better albums used sides as part of their art. The biggest unintended negative consequence of the CD is that pop artists felt pressure to "fill up" the 74 minutes (so as not to "rip off" the consumer) of space which is a disaster for many pop CD's. Out of 8-12 tracks on an LP there were usually some "filler tracks" but when the pop musicians went up to 20 tracks unfortunately in many cases MOST of the CD became filler.

 

[xr100]

Vinyl to me is like printed books vs. Knidle. The books (and LPs) look great displayed on shelves, but digital is much easier. I can carry dozens of Kindle books with me all the time.

In my view open shelves are "clutter." That stuff should all be behind doors!

 

[Srossi]

I don't believe you are giving this feature due consideration.

Generally speaking, in the vinyl days, when we put on record albums we tended to let them play. Especially if they were of a favorite group.
This was often serendipitous for one's music life. It was absolutely routine for me (and I know, many others) to start off with certain tracks in an album as my favorite, but over time to discover how much I liked the tracks I originally didn't care for, and my favorite tracks would evolve over time this way. So many of my favorite tracks started off as ones I would have ignored if I'd been creating playlists at the time.

I can see the difference in action both in how people in myself, people I know, and my family listens to music digitally. My wife never listens to a whole album. Neither do my kids. Even when we'd shared music via itunes purchases or my ripped CDs, the family would just select a song or two or three from an album, the ones they liked immediately, and those were the only ones in rotation in their playlist. Same for streaming. When I'm listening to my ripped CDs, it tends to be only certain tracks. And when I'm streaming I rarely save full albums as favorites; I surf an album and just save the tracks that have immediate intrigue, and skip the rest.

Now that I've been building a vinyl collection I'm listening to whole albums and, just like days of yore, I'm finding myself appreciating tracks differently over time. I end up liking many more songs per album this way. It just feels more holistic, a deeper dive in to the musician's work, vs quickly nabbing a few tracks for a playlist.

To each his own, of course.

Ahhhhhh - you can play albums digitally just as easy - discipline.

 

[Dant]

Good Reasons:
1. Some albums on vinyl never made it to CD or downloads, or is very hard to get.

I’m preparing to buy a turntable and this is my primary motivation in doing so. I prefer physical media and have been using CDs when I sit down for a listening session for a long time, but the vinyl revival has left me high and dry with some of the more niche things I listen to like artists I find on SoundCloud/BandCamp and video game soundtracks. You generally get three options now: download, vinyl, and occasionally cassette.

Even rereleases of old music are going this way. Depeche Mode started releasing box sets of their early singles over the past few years, most of which were never on any album. Those releases... are vinyl only.

Cassette revival.

I’d almost prefer this. I’m at least old enough to have experience with cassettes! Besides that, a good Type IV tape and Dolby S noise reduction sounds close enough to a CD for me; not that either of those things help in a day and age where no one produces metal tape and Dolby won’t license their noise reduction anymore.

 

[digicidal]

I'll admit to just skimming through this thread after the first few posts. Can someone just tell me how much the turntable that smells like vagina costs so I can give it a middle finger? That's what you're talking about right? Right? Hello? (I stopped reading when @Thomas savage recommended tea-bagging).

Seriously though... I think it makes perfect sense to spend as much on a turntable as you have spent on actual vinyl to play on it - unfortunately for me I can't seem to find a $10 version. For those with 100's or 1000's of LPs... hell, get that TechDas and go crazy IMO. I'll have to stick with my DAC I'm afraid.

 

[Sal1950]

I can see the difference in action both in how people in myself, people I know, and my family listens to music digitally. My wife never listens to a whole album.

This surprises me, I figured it was more of a generational thing. I listen to my digital files in the same way I used to listen to LP's, from start to finish. It is a rare occasion that I'll skip a track, and then its only because I really dislike that track. IMO people miss the ability to appreciate the other music offered on the various tracks by jumping around the way they do. I see the same behavior in the younger crowd when watching TV, popping from channel to channel without giving some offerings the time to become involved whats going on.., they surf faster than I can even determine what was on
I do appreciate the remote I got for my PC media players. I can then skip something I really don't like, or pause to take a leak without ever going near my PC. LOL
But seriously you track and channel jumpers, stop and smell the roses. There's excellent stuff going on between the hits.

 

[Robin L]

I don't believe you are giving this feature due consideration.

Generally speaking, in the vinyl days, when we put on record albums we tended to let them play. Especially if they were of a favorite group.
This was often serendipitous for one's music life. It was absolutely routine for me (and I know, many others) to start off with certain tracks in an album as my favorite, but over time to discover how much I liked the tracks I originally didn't care for, and my favorite tracks would evolve over time this way. So many of my favorite tracks started off as ones I would have ignored if I'd been creating playlists at the time.

I can see the difference in action both in how people in myself, people I know, and my family listens to music digitally. My wife never listens to a whole album. Neither do my kids. Even when we'd shared music via itunes purchases or my ripped CDs, the family would just select a song or two or three from an album, the ones they liked immediately, and those were the only ones in rotation in their playlist. Same for streaming. When I'm listening to my ripped CDs, it tends to be only certain tracks. And when I'm streaming I rarely save full albums as favorites; I surf an album and just save the tracks that have immediate intrigue, and skip the rest.

Now that I've been building a vinyl collection I'm listening to whole albums and, just like days of yore, I'm finding myself appreciating tracks differently over time. I end up liking many more songs per album this way. It just feels more holistic, a deeper dive in to the musician's work, vs quickly nabbing a few tracks for a playlist.

To each his own, of course.

A bug, not a feature.

A lot of what I hear is classical. Can't express how much pleasure can be found in playing the entirety of the Well Tempered Klavier without interruption. Or Bruckner symphonies without side changes.

Flipping LPs is a bug, not a feature.

 

[restorer-john]

I don't believe you are giving this feature due consideration.

Generally speaking, in the vinyl days, when we put on record albums we tended to let them play. Especially if they were of a favorite group.
This was often serendipitous for one's music life. It was absolutely routine for me (and I know, many others) to start off with certain tracks in an album as my favorite, but over time to discover how much I liked the tracks I originally didn't care for, and my favorite tracks would evolve over time this way. So many of my favorite tracks started off as ones I would have ignored if I'd been creating playlists at the time.

I can see the difference in action both in how people in myself, people I know, and my family listens to music digitally. My wife never listens to a whole album. Neither do my kids. Even when we'd shared music via itunes purchases or my ripped CDs, the family would just select a song or two or three from an album, the ones they liked immediately, and those were the only ones in rotation in their playlist. Same for streaming. When I'm listening to my ripped CDs, it tends to be only certain tracks. And when I'm streaming I rarely save full albums as favorites; I surf an album and just save the tracks that have immediate intrigue, and skip the rest.

Now that I've been building a vinyl collection I'm listening to whole albums and, just like days of yore, I'm finding myself appreciating tracks differently over time. I end up liking many more songs per album this way. It just feels more holistic, a deeper dive in to the musician's work, vs quickly nabbing a few tracks for a playlist.

To each his own, of course.

This post says it all. Bands/Artists I was introduced to with one song became soundtrack-of-my-life bands because of whole of album listening. Dug deep into the back catalogues and followed them with new albums. It was because you put the effort in, went on their journey and developed a real appreciation for their entire output. Sometimes of course, you got disappointed, but that was all part of the fun.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I can see the difference in action both in how people in myself, people I know, and my family listens to music digitally. My wife never listens to a whole album. Neither do my kids. Even when we'd shared music via itunes purchases or my ripped CDs, the family would just select a song or two or three from an album, the ones they liked immediately, and those were the only ones in rotation in their playlist. Same for streaming. When I'm listening to my ripped CDs, it tends to be only certain tracks. And when I'm streaming I rarely save full albums as favorites; I surf an album and just save the tracks that have immediate intrigue, and skip the rest.

Now that I've been building a vinyl collection I'm listening to whole albums and, just like days of yore, I'm finding myself appreciating tracks differently over time. I end up liking many more songs per album this way. It just feels more holistic, a deeper dive in to the musician's work, vs quickly nabbing a few tracks for a playlist.

I see this but that is a problem of people and short-termism not digital.
I pretty well always listen to a whole album whether on CD ot LP, perhaps it is habit, and only make playlists of complete classical works titled so I can actually find them on my hard drive.