What is the bass extension to go for when buying new speakers ?

[staticV3]

@gasolin75 If you want bookshelf speakers under 1000€ that can play deep, look no further than the Focal Alpha Twin Evo with a 29Hz F3.

Alternatively, there are 8" monitors like the 308P MKII, T8V, LP-8v2, IN-8v2, A308 that all have an F3 of 40-45Hz.

 

[Svet Angelov]

Maybe the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1? I think they fall within the budget. Great bass for their size.

 

[Avp1]

I agree the bottom half-octave (below 30 Hz) is rarely needed for music but I would miss it if the bass response didn't get down to 30 Hz. Bass drums in symphonic music, bass guitars, pipe organs, and other sounds like musicians tapping/thumping their feet can go that low. And speakers that go down to 30 Hz often have lower distortion at 50 Hz, than a speaker that rolls off below 50 Hz.

Speakers other than very big ones do not do well in bass range. Generally it is better to cross stand mount speakers at 80Hz and floor standing at 50-60Hz. That way you let the subwoofer do most job, which is what they are designed for. Just make sure that you not only use low pass filter for subwoofers, but corresponding high pass filter for speakers. That way you avoid case when speakers try to produce low bass, but fail t do so and that distorts mid-range too.

 

[ZolaIII]

For those who don't mind hassle to do proper integration for possibly less than 1000 $/€ and mid sized room going unbalanced and active. Pair of Kali LP 6 V2's and pair of Wharfedale WH-D10 sub's. In such room and even in small one you will get to 30 Hz 0 dB that way. That's of course price without the DSP component and or with multichannel DAC. The Pi 5 or Intel W100 paird with silent PSU and deacent audio card look more and more appealing now and with Linux (I found ALSA ISO 226 2003 implementation plugin).

 

[gasolin75]

@gasolin75 If you want bookshelf speakers under 1000€ that can play deep, look no further than the Focal Alpha Twin Evo with a 29Hz F3.

Alternatively, there are 8" monitors like the 308P MKII, T8V, LP-8v2, IN-8v2, A308 that all have an F3 of 40-45Hz.

Passive speakers, if i where into active speakers i would go for something like a pair of Mackie MR824, rated down to 35hz,even when they don't cost close to 1000 euros for a pair, im just not looking for active speakers

 

[gasolin75]

Maybe the Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1? I think they fall within the budget. Great bass for their size.

Didn't find them in europe

 

[staticV3]

Passive speakers, if i where into active speakers i would go for something like a pair of Mackie MR824, rated down to 35hz,even when they don't cost close to 1000 euros for a pair, im just not looking for active speakers

Elac Carina BS243.4, DBR-62, or Kef Q150:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...arina-bs243-4-review-bookshelf-speaker.34398/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/elac_dbr62/
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/kef_q150/

These only extend to 50-55Hz though, so you'd be missing out compared to actives.

Compared to the CCB-8, at least we have data for them.

 

[ZolaIII]

Passive speakers

In case of pasive bookshelf one's and with same sub's Elac DBR62 in economy class.

 

[gasolin75]

I find it a little strange that for the same price as yamah hs8,mackie mr824 and speakers like the Alpha Twin Evo you hardly cant find any passive speaker like them, just without the amp, even when it may cost the same

Elac Carina BS 243.4 to expensive and to low sensitivity
DBR-62 also to low sensitivity
Kef Q150 has the same problem with the sensitivity

I don't wanna bother with a subwoofer, limited space and when i play loud (need a big subwoofer for me to feel the low bass is loud) things rattle in a diffrent more annoyning way than playing loud with only the speakers on each side of my monitors

Have had Mission LX 3 MKII with a cambridge audio cxa25, the bass was lacking alot, the amp couldn't play bass, i also think the bass from the mission wasn't according to there size, my q acoustics 3010i (i bought cheap in 2022 black friday and don't own anymore) had the perception of more and deeper bass. Hate the silver rings on the Q A 3000i's so im having a hard time getting a pair of 3030i's since i wanna use them without the grills,cover.

 

[staticV3]

I find it a little strange that for the same price as yamah hs8,mackie mr824 and speakers like the Alpha Twin Evo you hardly can find any passive speaker like them without the amp, even when it may cost the same

Elac Carina BS 243.4 to expensive and to low sensitivity
DBR-62 also to low sensitivity
Kef Q150 has the same problem with the sensitivity

Have had Mission LX 3 MKII with a cambridge audio cxa25 the bass was lacking alot, the amp couldn't play bass, i also think the bass from the mission wasn't according to there size, my q acoustics 3010i (i bought cheap in 2022 black friday and don't own anymore) had the perception of more and deeper bass. Hate the silver rings on the Q A 3000i's

What kind of sensitivity are looking for, in terms of dB SPL/2.83V?

 

[ZolaIII]

@gasolin75 Q3030i are about 86 dB @ 1 W 8 Ohms and rest of the line is smaller and less efficient. Future more they need to be 10 to 15° (meaning in between is sweet spot) of horizontally for best response in highs. Perception is because of lerge back port's but needless to say it's just that, besides they are hard to control. I use them port's plugged and with 2x mentioned sub's.
Edit: dose it take considerably more space to have those with sub's vs on stands? No I keep them on sub's isolated from each other's with thick silicone pads and same thing I do with sub's to floor.

 

[dfuller]

I find it a little strange that for the same price as yamah hs8,mackie mr824 and speakers like the Alpha Twin Evo you hardly cant find any passive speaker like them, just without the amp, even when it may cost the same

A little secret here - Most actives have some EQ helping the low end response. That said, the HS8 is not doing 38hz at any appreciable level. Yamaha quotes the -10dB points but doesn't mention that (hello, marketing!). Its F3 is actually only 47hz, which isn't particularly outstanding for an 8" driver in a decently sized ported box.

Beyond that, they can be extended lower because they have driver protection - a limiter preventing over-excursion and/or too much current nuking voice coils keeps it from being too much of an issue. That said, none of these can do LF at any appreciable level - you have to step up to much larger speakers for that. The first set of speakers I've owned where the low end feels deep and powerful enough without subs are my KH420s. The KH310s extend pretty low, but they have zero headroom to speak of. Start pushing them even a little bit and they become boxy and sound strained.

 

[ZolaIII]

@dfuller don't forget the room and additional extension as its pair and sum +3 dB under 60 Hz (6 dB 3 from other speaker and 3 from sum). Again when looking at the sub you look for peak SPL at 40 Hz.

 

[tmtomh]

I don't wanna have to integrate a subwoofer

As you've seen, many/most here will advise you to be open to the benefits of a subwoofer.

That makes sense, but personally I too have been reluctant to add subs to my setup.

Putting aside price, at least for the moment, I got Genelec 8351b's a few months ago and their bass performance knocks my socks off. Again, it is not hard to find members here who say the 51's need a sub, and I am not trying to argue with them or say they're wrong - but for me personally, I feel no such need.

The point of all this is that here's the 8351b's Klippel response, from Amir's review here on ASR:

The F3 - the point at which the bass response is down no more than 3dB from the average response in the rest of the spectrum - looks to be about 33 or 34Hz from Amir's results, which agrees very well with Genelec's official spec of 32Hz.

Prior to the Genelecs I had a pair of B&W 705s. Totally different class of speaker of course, but their F3, I believe, is around 45Hz.

The difference in my experience is massive - as in, I had the subwoofer-type experience one member described above: some music has bass lines that I never really heard before with the 705s. And the approx. 50Hz kick-drum impact is also night and day with the Genelecs compared to the B&Ws.

So I would say a rough guide is that if you want active, stand-mount speakers without a subwoofer and you want to feel "good bass," look for speakers with an F3 no higher than 40Hz, and ideally a little below that.

That does rule out a lot of speakers, especially at lower price points. There's a reason a lot of stand mount speakers roll off precipitously below 50Hz - it's harder and more expensive to design in and implement clean bass below that. I'm not a "bass head" and personally I couldn't care less about the 20Hz to 30Hz range. But I have found that the 15-20 cycles between 30-35Hz and 50Hz make a huge difference.

YMMV of course.

 

[Avp1]

As you've seen, many/most here will advise you to be open to the benefits of a subwoofer.

That makes sense, but personally I too have been reluctant to add subs to my setup.

Putting aside price, at least for the moment, I got Genelec 8351b's a few months ago and their bass performance knocks my socks off. Again, it is not hard to find members here who say the 51's need a sub, and I am not trying to argue with them or say they're wrong - but for me personally, I feel no such need.

The point of all this is that here's the 8351b's Klippel response, from Amir's review here on ASR:

View attachment 354205

The F3 - the point at which the bass response is down no more than 3dB from the average response in the rest of the spectrum - looks to be about 33 or 34Hz from Amir's results, which agrees very well with Genelec's official spec of 32Hz.

Prior to the Genelecs I had a pair of B&W 705s. Totally different class of speaker of course, but their F3, I believe, is around 45Hz.

The difference in my experience is massive - as in, I had the subwoofer-type experience one member described above: some music has bass lines that I never really heard before with the 705s. And the approx. 50Hz kick-drum impact is also night and day with the Genelecs compared to the B&Ws.

So I would say a rough guide is that if you want active, stand-mount speakers without a subwoofer and you want to feel "good bass," look for speakers with an F3 no higher than 40Hz, and ideally a little below that.

That does rule out a lot of speakers, especially at lower price points. There's a reason a lot of stand mount speakers roll off precipitously below 50Hz - it's harder and more expensive to design in and implement clean bass below that. I'm not a "bass head" and personally I couldn't care less about the 20Hz to 30Hz range. But I have found that the 15-20 cycles between 30-35Hz and 50Hz make a huge difference.

YMMV of course.

85dB sound level is NOTHING for deep bass, this is whispering level. You need to look at at least 105dB of sound pressure (and distortion at that level).

 

[rynberg]

Im look at slightly more powerful speakers

Or to say it in another way, what hz is playing normal pop,jazz,rock,heavy metal,rap, regular electronic music like jean michel jarre, mike oldfield, yello, kraftwerk... the lower limit ?

Music 90% of all people listen to where there isn't any bass under a certain frequency, like trying to buy speakers that go much lower than 45-50hz at -3 or -6 db where some people might say theres not much (normal) music with bass under 50hz and therefor the lower bass extension would be a wast of money, as long as the speaker,amp combination you have can play loud enough

What is the bass extension to go for ?

Just get a good subwoofer. Modern music frequently has strong content below 40 Hz, especially electronic music where content is frequently below 30 Hz. You aren't achieving that with speakers until you are spending several thousands of dollars, and even then that kind of extension and output is very rare.

 

[rynberg]

Less than 30Hz is pretty rare in modern music.

Depending on the genre of music, that blanket statement is completely untrue.

 

[dualazmak]

Depending on the genre of music, that blanket statement is completely untrue.

Agree!
Just for your reference and interests,,, some links to posts on my project thread...

- Excellent Recording Quality Music Albums/Tracks for Subjective (and Possibly Objective) Test/Check/Tuning of Multichannel Multi-Driver Multi-Way Multi-Amplifier Time-Aligned Active Stereo Audio System and Room Acoustics; at least a Portion and/or One Track being Analyzed by Color Spectrum of Adobe Audition in Common Parameters: [Part-09] Organ Music: #641 _____ [Part-08]_Smooth(?) Jazz Trio: #640

- Reproduction and listening/hearing/feeling sensations to 16 Hz (organ) sound with my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system having big-heavy active L&R sub-woofers: #782

- The latest system setup of my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio rig as of August 3, 2023: #774

At least for myself, I definitely need L&R subwoofers plus L&R supertweeters with flexible on-the-fly relative gain controls.

Spoiler

 

[tmtomh]

85dB sound level is NOTHING for deep bass, this is whispering level. You need to look at at least 105dB of sound pressure (and distortion at that level).

The chart I shared from Amir's review doesn't show the speakers' maximum output capability.

 

[Chrispy]

I like good capabilities but even with those in the 30hz range I'll still use subs in any case, just better in the lower realm but I want the speakers to have significant drivers for larger rooms. Smaller room like my very small bedroom a 5.1 setup using 5.25" drivers and f3s in the high 40s/low 50s and two subs works great.