What is the bass extension to go for when buying new speakers ?

[gasolin75]

Im look at slightly more powerful speakers

Tried the other day to give it all it's got for a certain song, it was loud and okay bass but i missed a more pronounced,punchier bass (without adding a subwoofer to my system) and the ability to play loud very effordless, like some higher tier systems or pa systems can do

The other day i tried this speaker with a Denon PMA-900HNE, not the most powerful amp but the combination is loud but a little dark, so i had to turn the highs all the way up to get a good balance, the bass is of course really good and i could play loud.

V15C

15" power monitor with massive power and great hi-fi qualities. V15C delivers insane dynamics, soundstage, and heavy bass, even in huge rooms. With its 15” woofer and 95 dB sensitivity, V15C is as much a physical experience as it is a musical one.

vestlyd.com

Most high end,higher tier speakers i listen to was Dali Opticon 2,Dali Rubicon 2 B&W 607 and 606 S3 and B&W 706 S3 or 707 S3

None of them didn't really have any deep bass, around 50 hz - 3 db was the most and even rated at 50hz it might not go as deep as 50hz -3db (the same with sensitivity), B&W 606 S3 how ever sounded tighter,deeper and a little louder,punchier than the other hifi speakers (but could be to much in the highs at high levels with the wrong amp)

Some speakers have alot of midbass (warmth) some have alot of bass and some has alot of deep bass (lets say bass is 80-50hz and deep bass is 50hz and down)

If loud music is one of your goals you must go for a big speaker +6" + high sensitivity, regardless of frequency response, what bass extension,hz should you aim for ?

Or to say it in another way, what hz is playing normal pop,jazz,rock,heavy metal,rap, regular electronic music like jean michel jarre, mike oldfield, yello, kraftwerk... the lower limit ?

Music 90% of all people listen to where there isn't any bass under a certain frequency, like trying to buy speakers that go much lower than 45-50hz at -3 or -6 db where some people might say theres not much (normal) music with bass under 50hz and therefor the lower bass extension would be a wast of money, as long as the speaker,amp combination you have can play loud enough

What is the bass extension to go for ?

 

[GaryY]

I'm still newbie and might be wrong, but what I am experiencing that just buying main speakers only looking at bass extension might not be the best solution due to room mode in real world.
I didn't understand why subwoofer is needed to have good bass because I was looking for the minimal system in the room. But in the end, the solution turned out to me was (subwoofer to have good frequency response with flexibility + DSP for time alignment for tight sound/supporing flexible subwoofer positioning).

Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[Zapper]

Or to say it in another way, what hz is playing normal pop,jazz,rock,heavy metal,rap, regular electronic music like jean michel jarre, mike oldfield, yello, kraftwerk... the lower limit ?

A 4-string bass goes down to 41Hz (low E). A 5-string bass goes down to 31 Hz (low B). Electronic music can go down much lower.

When I added a subwoofer I realized that some songs had bass tracks I never heard before with bookshelf speakers rolling off hard at 50Hz.

If you want to cover the full range down to these notes, a subwoofer is by far the most practical way to do it. The reproduction of good bass often requires a different speaker placement than the reproduction of the rest of the spectrum.

 

[staticV3]

Or to say it in another way, what hz is playing normal pop,jazz,rock,heavy metal,rap, regular electronic music like jean michel jarre, mike oldfield, yello, kraftwerk... the lower limit ?

Less than 30Hz is pretty rare in modern music.

 

[ZolaIII]

Sub's with peak SPL capacity at 40 Hz, rest is the mater of digital processing and crossover and crossed per each speaker separate at 110 to 130 Hz. Why? Well so that they follow ISO 226 2003 to a woffer (and frequency area which that will cover) that's capable to do it and mains capable for the main and uper bass of course. As 110~130 Hz is high for waves to be unified you need one per each chenel and they will will sum up naturally full around 60 Hz giving it about +3 dB more SPL capacity under it. You want small rise from 45 Hz under till they drop down (depending of sub's and space. Preferably 10“ closed enclosure sub's for more gradual roll off and correct time domain. If need be (large space and or 120 dB or more requirements) area of such. For home requirements are about 106~108 dB true peeks on listening spot for 86~88 dB program (+20 dB peak). Keep in mind how they don't lose even close to - 6 dB in closed space with 2x distance increase and how measurements and declarations are mostly for mid (2 m) not close field (1 m) like for speakers. Proper crossover and integration ain't easy. Cross area needs to be smooth and over it also no bumps or falls or it will sound not complete or boomy. I use Buterrwor model, find it to cope better with in material peeks over crossover affected area than L-R, have fun.

 

[gasolin75]

I don't wanna have to integrate a subwoofer, i have had some and they don't seem to play loud enough, i also don't have much options for placement, the goal for a subwoofer is to pressurize the room, i have a shelf above my stove in my kitchen that rattles and rumble (noise) when i have a subwoofer

Okay if i have very big active bookshelfs speakers i might have it to but not as much as a subwoofer

Some of the speakers i listen to from Dali and B&W wasn't bass monsters except for the B&W 606 S3 (both the 606 and 607 are rated down to 40 hz -6db but the 606 has noticeable more and deeper bass + 4db higher rated sensitivity)

If i buy a pair of 1000 euro speakers i also want more bass, more power, my intention is indeed to look for a more sensitive par of speakers with better bass,more punchy,groovy bass, that is what i miss, like the mentioned speakers with the denon amp i tried in a store

Where is the hz limit for a bookshelf speaker,physical and recorded bass limit, not to go crazy hunting for a bookshelf speakers that can go down to 40hz -3db at am avarage spl of 110db (8" monitor audio bronze or silver ?) at a for me very high price (diminishing returns).

My speakers are rated at +/- 3db at 50hz but might not go that low at +/- 3 db + sensitivity is at the low end

 

[Zapper]

The Wharfedale Linton would give you what you're looking for. Solid bass to 40Hz covers most rock, pop, jazz, classical. Fairly efficient. Better power handling and lower distortion than a small speaker like the Emit M10, so can make deeper louder more impactful bass. An 8" woofer to move more air.

 

[dfuller]

-3dB of 40hz is good, lower is better. But also consider headroom - distortion and thermal compression will affect your perception of low end quite a bit.

 

[FrankF]

I tried subwoofers with my Monitor Audios but in the end went with a pair of Revel Salon 2. Just about flat to 20 hz. Graph courtesy of "Sterophile".

 

[ZolaIII]

I don't know how to break this up to you. At level of 60 dB sub bass and low bass boost is +12 dB of which it's about +6 in sub to main bass. And that's for lo volume not in your face listening (normal conversation level). If you think any woffer crossed high (1 KHz or more) no matter how big can follow that even remotely accurate think again.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I wrote a bit about this a while back :

subwoofer for music stereo do you need one good or bad integrate

Introduction Getting a subwoofer properly integrated in a high quality music system requires a bit of work. Is it even worth it? Many movies have a lot of low frequency content, some even below 20hz. But what about music? We decided to study typical frequency content in contemporary music. We...

www.sigbergaudio.no

The article is about subs but it's relevant with regards to general low end extension too.

What complicates it a bit is that the way manufacturers present specs isn't really standardized. The good news is that your room will typically extend the bass. But based on what you say I would be looking at something going at least to 40hz, perhaps a bit into the 30s.

I've heard the Vestlyd speakers you mention, and they are probably a pretty good compromise to get fun and decent sound at a reasonable price.

 

[gasolin75]

The Wharfedale Linton would give you what you're looking for. Solid bass to 40Hz covers most rock, pop, jazz, classical. Fairly efficient. Better power handling and lower distortion than a small speaker like the Emit M10, so can make deeper louder more impactful bass. An 8" woofer to move more air.

Bigger than i prefer on each side of my 32" monitors (makes it look small), i have had big actives on my desk and i could go big but not as much as the lintons

 

[gasolin75]

I've heard the Vestlyd speakers you mention, and they are probably a pretty good compromise to get fun and decent sound at a reasonable price.

I liked them despite being very neautral sounding or dark sounding, they had the power to not sound slugish in turns of power,party level,bass and the highs where very comfortable, like a car that goes like a missile but still handles like a highway cruiser without a being to soft, when giving full throttle

This effordless playing loud and bass without sounding bright was very intriguing, most of the time it's just a little above tv levels but stil nice to have a little extra when you need it without sounding like it's got astma

 

[GaryY]

I don't know how to break this up to you. At level of 60 dB sub bass and low bass boost is +12 dB of which it's about +6 in sub to main bass. And that's for lo volume not in your face listening (normal conversation level). If you think any woffer crossed high (1 KHz or more) no matter how big can follow that even remotely accurate think again.
View attachment 354077View attachment 354078

Thanks. In every thread, I'm learning how much I'm dumm with hifi knowledge.

 

[Zapper]

Bigger than i prefer on each side of my 32" monitors (makes it look small), i have had big actives on my desk and i could go big but not as much as the lintons

You didn't say this was a desktop system.

I have a 2.1 active monitor system on my desktop. I have a 32" monitor with two 27" monitors on either side angled towards me. The sub is on the desktop, in the corner behind the right hand 27" monitor, so it is working in nearfield. It does not need to pressurize the room to convey convincing bass when it is 1m from my ears. The perceived bass is less sensitive to room modes as well. I get bass into the 30Hz region. I tried the sub on the floor in several locations but the desktop position worked the best.

If you want bass you either need big speakers or a sub. There are pros and cons to both.

 

[ZolaIII]

@Zapper in the near field you can completely eliminate first and heaviest room mode refractions by putting sub straight ahead of you on 1 m distance (on the floor of course). Tho you don't want to eliminate it entirely but let it help you a bit on the low end. Where it is is exactly is influenced mainly by room length (longer it is it's lower).

 

[Zapper]

@Zapper in the near field you can completely eliminate first and heaviest room mode refractions by putting sub straight ahead of you on 1 m distance (on the floor of course). Tho you don't want to eliminate it entirely but let it help you a bit on the low end. Where it is is exactly is influenced mainly by room length (longer it is it's lower).

@ZolaIII , the biggest issue I have is that in my seating position at the desk, my ears are almost exactly 1/2 the ceiling height. So with the sub on the floor I get a 70Hz pressure null at my ears.

Second issue is it is a sit/stand desk. With the sub on the floor the tonal balance changes between the two positions.

Third is general bad acoustics. It's a small untreated room with a large L-shaped desk. The desk is big enough to change the acoustic loading of the sub.

All these issues are mitigated with the small sub on the desk, 1m away, rather than on the floor.

 

[Ron Texas]

Flat to DC of course, LOL.

 

[gasolin75]

It is bookshelf speakers, passive speakers

I don't wanna go for something bigger than a pair of Yamaha HS-7 and 1000 euros for a pair

a litle tighter bass, not so much more round and soft, im not shure if i could do with 50hz lets say at -3db depending on the frequency responce and if it's tigher sounding and max spl (peak power i have is no less than 100 watt pr channel)

Today i found this speaker, looks good, i just don't think you can get in europe with no extra costs than shipping https://hsuresearch.com/products/ccb-8-speaker

 

[MRC01]

Less than 30Hz is pretty rare in modern music.

I agree the bottom half-octave (below 30 Hz) is rarely needed for music but I would miss it if the bass response didn't get down to 30 Hz. Bass drums in symphonic music, bass guitars, pipe organs, and other sounds like musicians tapping/thumping their feet can go that low. And speakers that go down to 30 Hz often have lower distortion at 50 Hz, than a speaker that rolls off below 50 Hz.