What is Alan Shaw on about? (is "coloration" unmeasurable?)

[CapMan]

I bought a Monoprice 365 THX centre ‘blind’ based on Erin’s review and positive measured response with klippel. It’s certainly a lot of speaker for £365, but vocals were sibilant and spitty sounding to me. I had to override the bias the that good measurements created and go with my ears on this one

I think there is something to be said for using the human voice as a subjective test for speaker performance which I know Alan is an advocate of.

I have met him and he is a charming, intelligent and kind chap who cares about his customers and the product he makes. Love his speakers or hate them - buyers choice. I don’t always understand or agree with his posts on the HUG, but his heart is in the right place.

 

[Waxx]

A.S. says coloration has nothing to do with FR…?
it must be something magic

Colouration can be a lot, it can be the frequency response that is not flat, but also harmonic distortion, (or distortion in general), it can be dispertion characteristics that are uneven and colour the sound, it can be phase issues between drivers in a multiway setup, it can be bad parts in the crossover (iron or ferriet core inductors that are to light and saturate as example), ... But all should be visible in measurements like Amir does, and most in simple FR and impendance measurements even.

 

[DSJR]

This 'bad' speaker is an active one apparently...

 

[mSpot]

Also in this thread he starts talking about coloration again. He told that he bought a perfect flat measuring speaker but we he listened to it and within a few seconds he could hear coloration. To him the speaker was unlistenable…
He stated that a flat speaker doesn’t always sound great.
And he said that you can’t measure coloration.
Why is that, he didn’t explain….
?

What he said was that he asked his engineers to identify technical measurements that correlate with the subjective coloration, but so far they have not found a single measurement to explain it. Shaw believes that audio analysis equipment is far more capable than human hearing and the coloration must be captured somewhere in the measurements, but they have not found it.

I also red the discussion, and he actually doesn't know what that colouration is and is searching it by disassembling the speaker and measuring the seperate parts to see if he can find where it's comming from. No conclusions yet.

I did not read it that way. When he talked about identifying the "source" of the coloration, he meant by analyzing measurements and identifying it as something in the signal (response, distortion, etc).

 

[Waxx]

What he said was that he asked his engineers to identify technical measurements that correlate with the subjective coloration, but so far they have not found a single measurement to explain it. Shaw believes that audio analysis equipment is far more capable than human hearing and the coloration must be captured somewhere in the measurements, but they have not found it.


I did not read it that way. When he talked about identifying the "source" of the coloration, he meant by analyzing measurements and identifying it as something in the signal (response, distortion, etc).

He already did that, and in one of his post in this tread he says that they are disassembling it: https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/threads/digital-signal-processing-and-loudspeakers.80536/page-2 (you need to be member to view the forum, membership is free and does not mean you need to be a customer)

He probally means he wants to measure the drivers, the amp and the dsp seperatly like he said further in the disucssion

 

[thewas]

A speaker does one thing: reproduction. It is an input/output device. Anything less than a perfectly flat response is colored. If he thinks he's hearing coloration from a flat speaker, it's the mastering of the source material that is to blame.

Or not optimally continuously smooth directivity which his construction don't have, flat on-axis is not enough unless you listen under anechoic conditions.

 

[thorvat]

Sigh...

A speaker does one thing: reproduction. It is an input/output device. Anything less than a perfectly flat response is colored. If he thinks he's hearing coloration from a flat speaker, it's the mastering of the source material that is to blame.

I am not a native english speaker but I don't associate word "coloration" used in this particular context with a deviation from linear frequency response but as an attempt to describe some kind of distortion, which may indeed exist even in the source material, so not necessarily coming from the speakers.

 

[ahofer]

And he said that you can’t measure coloration.

I haven’t seen him come out and say it. When I pressed him on it he just seemed to be saying that it doesn’t leap out of the standard measurement suite. But he’s annoyingly vague on the point.

 

[Waxx]

I haven’t seen him come out and say it. When I pressed him on it he just seemed to be saying that it doesn’t leap out of the standard measurement suite. But he’s annoyingly vague on the point.

In other posts in other treads he tells he is using a Kippel NFS like Amir has. If he can work with it is an other question, but he has some decent equipment to test.

 

[ahofer]

I just read through this DSP thread. He indicates that “coloration” is likely to show up in the time domain. Someone *finally* brings up waterfall/decay graphs, but they get short shrift. This is what’s aggravating (and why I visit less and less), he won’t just state what deficiencies he finds in a well-known measurement technique. It just kind of sets off my BS radar. Which is frustrating from someone who cuts through all the BS in electronics quite directly.

Anyone know what the “purple” speaker is? Has he taken a Genelec apart? It came with individual QC measurements, apparently.

 

[ThoFi]

I just read through this DSP thread. He indicates that “coloration” is likely to show up in the time domain. Someone *finally* brings up waterfall/decay graphs, but they get short shrift. This is what’s aggravating (and why I visit less and less), he won’t just state what deficiencies he finds in a well-known measurement technique. It just kind of sets off my BS radar. Which is frustrating from someone who cuts through all the BS in electronics quite directly.

Anyone know what the “purple” speaker is? Has he taken a Genelec apart? It came with individual QC measurements, apparently.

Couldn’t agree more!

 

[ThoFi]

I haven’t seen him come out and say it. When I pressed him on it he just seemed to be saying that it doesn’t leap out of the standard measurement suite. But he’s annoyingly vague on the point.

most of the time A.S. Is vague…disappointing

 

[Willem]

He has always tried to design speakers with a flat response, and has increasingly succeeeded in this. More recently he decided that the traditional passive technology had reached as far as it could, and that the time had come to move to active speakers with electronic crossovers/dsp. So he assembled a group of engineers and they did indeed create a speaker with a very flat response. However, he did not like the result because he feels the sound shows what he calls coloration, and he is now trying to figure out what it is that he does not like. He does not claim that there are things that cannot be measured, but only that he does not yet know what measurements would show what he is hearing, which is a scientifically respectable position.
The view that an electronically flattened response does not immediately sound right is not an exceptional view either: many have argued that e.g. Dirac used to flatten response above the transition frequency does not sound quite right, without providing much explanation either. So let us see what he comes up with.

 

[DSJR]

I thought it was a JBL 708, but that was a wild guess. I'd be surprised if it was a Genelec, as the bass of his measurements doesn't seem to reach as far and the almost total lack of box resonances in a typical Genelec (i cite the Stereophile review recently) would immediately eliminate the box colouration surely?

Remember, he's leading his flock very gently. These people are probably very new to the brand and may not be as 'savvy' as we are and have probably had time spent steeped in the worst of audiophoolery on their journey - many dealers don't help here at all! I suspect the revelations will come in a steady manner, taking the readers along with him. remember, in audiophile-land, active speakers as 'we' know them are the pits, as you can't play with amps, cables and so on and a dealer pal who's been around for many years, tells me nobody asks about 'active' models (Linn and Naim make going active a VERY expensive process and I think Meridian did it almost as expensively too for a while in the UK)

 

[Haint]

He has always tried to design speakers with a flat response, and has increasingly succeeeded in this. More recently he decided that the traditional passive technology had reached as far as it could, and that the time had come to move to active speakers with electronic crossovers/dsp. So he assembled a group of engineers and they did indeed create a speaker with a very flat response. However, he did not like the result because he feels the sound shows what he calls coloration, and he is now trying to figure out what it is that he does not like. He does not claim that there are things that cannot be measured, but only that he does not yet know what measurements would show what he is hearing, which is a scientifically respectable position.
The view that an electronically flattened response does not immediately sound right is not an exceptional view either: many have argued that e.g. Dirac used to flatten response above the transition frequency does not sound quite right, without providing much explanation either. So let us see what he comes up with.

Think it's pretty widely accepted to primarily be an artifact of trying to correct speakers with nonlinear off axis anomalies combined with the way 2 ears and a brain "filter" room reflections being rather different from the way an omindirectional mic and computer tries to do it. Perhaps there is something yet to solve with the later, but I'm not sure a self professed golden ear trying to measure the golden is going to wind up there.

I bought a Monoprice 365 THX centre ‘blind’ based on Erin’s review and positive measured response with klippel. It’s certainly a lot of speaker for £365, but vocals were sibilant and spitty sounding to me. I had to override the bias the that good measurements created and go with my ears on this one

I think there is something to be said for using the human voice as a subjective test for speaker performance which I know Alan is an advocate of.

I have met him and he is a charming, intelligent and kind chap who cares about his customers and the product he makes. Love his speakers or hate them - buyers choice. I don’t always understand or agree with his posts on the HUG, but his heart is in the right place.

Erin's 365C measurments show a broad and quite pronounced (maybe +3dB) on-axis rise and shelf starting at around 7Khz and extending to ~17Khz, relative to the broad average of the preceeding region (~700Hz to 7Khz). Would not at all be surprised at someone descibing subjective sibilance there.

 

[ThoFi]

In other posts in other treads he tells he is using a Kippel NFS like Amir has. If he can work with it is an other question, but he has some decent equipment to test.

another vague rumor from A.S.
he never shares measurements. If so, then very old one from his archive.

 

[Willem]

Thofi,
I know you have a bee in your bonnet about AS because he showed that you were pushing nonsense on electronics in the Harbeth forum and were making unsubstantiated claims. Just about all your subsequent ASR posts are nothing more than revenge trolling.

 

[sergeauckland]

I thought it was a JBL 708, but that was a wild guess. I'd be surprised if it was a Genelec, as the bass of his measurements doesn't seem to reach as far and the almost total lack of box resonances in a typical Genelec (i cite the Stereophile review recently) would immediately eliminate the box colouration surely?

Remember, he's leading his flock very gently. These people are probably very new to the brand and may not be as 'savvy' as we are and have probably had time spent steeped in the worst of audiophoolery on their journey - many dealers don't help here at all! I suspect the revelations will come in a steady manner, taking the readers along with him. remember, in audiophile-land, active speakers as 'we' know them are the pits, as you can't play with amps, cables and so on and a dealer pal who's been around for many years, tells me nobody asks about 'active' models (Linn and Naim make going active a VERY expensive process and I think Meridian did it almost as expensively too for a while in the UK)

Harbeth do have active 'form'. They made a limited number of active M40s, which weren't pursued as a commercial product. The active M40s used opamps in a 'classic' active arrangement, much as Meridian did before their DSP-based actives.

Going DSP-based seems to me the only sensible progress a company like Harbeth can make. Passives have gone about as far as they can.


S.

 

[ahofer]

He has always tried to design speakers with a flat response, and has increasingly succeeeded in this. More recently he decided that the traditional passive technology had reached as far as it could, and that the time had come to move to active speakers with electronic crossovers/dsp. So he assembled a group of engineers and they did indeed create a speaker with a very flat response. However, he did not like the result because he feels the sound shows what he calls coloration, and he is now trying to figure out what it is that he does not like. He does not claim that there are things that cannot be measured, but only that he does not yet know what measurements would show what he is hearing, which is a scientifically respectable position.
The view that an electronically flattened response does not immediately sound right is not an exceptional view either: many have argued that e.g. Dirac used to flatten response above the transition frequency does not sound quite right, without providing much explanation either. So let us see what he comes up with.

That would suggest he hadn’t done a lot of reading before making DSP adjustments, if he’s doing narrow-Q adjustments in higher frequencies. I guess he’s got to take this journey on his own, though, and document along the way.

 

[ThoFi]

Interestingly the coloration topic was „discussed“ at the Harbeth forum in March…and again now….
Maybe an explanation/ measurements comes soon!?